Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[netmilsmom]

>>That the art, if indeed representing Mary, doesn’t bother you is irrelevant to the fact that it bothers me<<

No, the artist interpreted it that way and named his photo “Mary’s Sacrifice” by his interpretation.

[vladimir998]

By the way, this misunderstood has been used here at FR at least twice. Dr. Eckleburg was pushing it in November. Look at post 28, 30, 32 below: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2386784/posts?page=32#32

What you see here is how one ill informed person’s bizarre anti-Catholic ideas are picked up by other anti-Catholics without ANY investigation or thought or discernment. As long as it’s anti-Catholic, it’s okay.

[Alamo-Girl]

You say now that you are not attributing motive, but at 5203 you said "Why look for something to bother you?" (emphasis mine)

[Alamo-Girl]

If by "one ill informed person’s bizarre anti-Catholic ideas" you are referring to me, then your statement is false.

[Alamo-Girl]

All that I know of the title is that it appeared with the image on his prints-for-sale. So I can say "photographer's title" confidently. But I cannot say how he arrived at that title - whether he dreamed it up, read it on a nameplate or artist's inscription, someone suggested it to him, etc.

[vladimir998]

Good points.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“If by “one ill informed person’s bizarre anti-Catholic ideas” you are referring to me, then your statement is false.”

No, I wasn’t referring to you there.

[Mr Rogers]

“Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear? Do all men possess a new heart of flesh? Does God renew the minds of all men — all to enable men to see, hear, love and know the things of God?”

Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear?

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them...So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

“Do all men possess a new heart of flesh?”

No. God said, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you.” - Ez 36

The new heart follows justification. And how are we justified?

“For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”

Thus the two events were combined in one when God said, “Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!” - Ez 18

“Or does He first give men eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind and then men are enabled to want the things of God?”

If we repent, and believe in the one He sent, then we are justified and God gives us a new heart. We die with Christ, that we might live with Him.

“We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” - Romans 6

But does everyone confronted by God repent? Not when Jesus confronted them. And not even when the Holy Spirit confronts believers, since we do sometimes harden our hearts and resist the Holy Spirit.

No man seeks God, but God seeks us. And what happens?

“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2

When were they cut to the heart? Was it BEFORE or AFTER they were saved? Since they were cut to the heart and THEN asked ‘what shall we do’, I’d have to say they SAW their need prior to rebirth. When Philip met the Ethiopian, the Ethiopian asked for help. The Ethiopian recognized his need...but how? He hadn’t been given eyes to see or ears to hear. He was dead - how can a dead man ask for help?

Prevenient grace. Or God’s grace, given in unequal measure, but enough for the Ethiopian to recognize his need. The Ethiopian didn’t save himself, but he saw his need prior to salvation.

In Matt 11, Jesus said:

“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Man’s wisdom counts for nothing. It is God’s revelation. And what does Jesus say? “Come to me...” God reveals. We come...or not.

[netmilsmom]

>> “Why look for something to bother you?” (emphasis mine)<<

“You” is plural as well.

[wagglebee]

Inside, at the central "altar" is a masterpiece by Titian titled "The Assumption."

I'll post a more complete picture since the one you posted left out the ever so important top section:

Now, I've lost track of how many times I've been told that the Assumption of the Blessed Mother was "invented" by the Catholic Church in the mid-20th century. Yet, this painting was completed in the early-16th century (it was completed around 1518). The fact is that this painting was completed around the same time the Protestant Reformation BEGAN.

Titian was one of the best known painters in the world and I'm sure that some would love to say that he simply "imagined" this, but Botticini had completed this painting in 1476:

So, I guess I have two questions:

1. How can you say something was "invented" in the 1950s when there are paintings of it that were done more than 400 years before?

2. Since these paintings establish a known belief, why did none of the Reformers denounce it?

[Judith Anne]

Thank you for posting those beautiful paintings.

[netmilsmom]

>>All that I know of the title is that it appeared with the image on his prints-for-sale. So I can say “photographer’s title” confidently. But I cannot say how he arrived at that title - whether he dreamed it up, read it on a nameplate or artist’s inscription, someone suggested it to him, etc.<<

Understanding that the photographer was selling photographs and that this is from a Graveyard AND looking at the other titles, one can safely state that the titles were names by the artist of his photos.

Unless one thinks that plaques like “Graceful with Granite” are on gravestones.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=photographybyivan.com%20%20%22Mary%27s%20Sacrifice&rlz=1W1GGLL_en&aql=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[netmilsmom]

I think that is the thread where I asked my 21 year old Goddaughter about the artwork. She said it was probably being sold by a vendor. Lots of different works of art are sold there.

She also said that the style of the art is different on one side than the other with the corpus being of an older style than the modern Madonna with Child. She is an art major at Columbia University and toured Rome to study liturgical art.

[Alamo-Girl]

Good observation, dear netmilsmom! Nevertheless, if I scroll a website of statuary for sale, like Toscano, some many have artists' titles while some may only have descriptions.

[Mad Dawg]

I hear ABC is offended that some scope manufacturer is including Scripture references on their product.

Yeah, Trijicon. I've got one of their sights and lo and behold ... Totally cool.

But it's not just ABC there/s some idiot who thinks this is a horrible breach of the 1st Amendment!

[Natural Law]

"Like I said; if you guys would study the scriptures like you study your catechism, you'd soon find out that God isn't interested in great theological minds...You'd find out your church traditions are meaningless to God...God wrote everything in the scriptures that was necessary for our Salvation..."

To deny that the Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound means you know or understand precious little of the content, source and authority of either or both. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

[LowOiL]

"Wow, what a beautiful cross. Wish I had one. I think it’s neat that the artist.............."

I guess art is in the eye of the beholder...you might find this art also ...

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Vladimir

"Vladimir....You always pluck the sweetest rose and crush it until each petal falls"

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Clean link, 2mb size, no vulgarity, mp3 format

[Mad Dawg]

And that's about the most. Sometimes we also add a hail Mary at the end of the Prayers of the People. But on weekdays, no confiteor, no creed, shorter canon ... fewer mentions of our Lady.

But we've seen in this thread how the noisiest of our critics really aren't concerned with truth.

[Mad Dawg]

I've read that a few times in my life.

Luther didn't know what freedom was. He took the Nominalist pill and went over to the dark side.

[netmilsmom]

>>But it’s not just ABC there/s some idiot who thinks this is a horrible breach of the 1st Amendment!<<

Oh for Heaven’s Sake!