Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
There is NOTHING suggesting that we were supposed to figure it out on our own. In fact, Saint Peter warns that this is DANGEROUS:
15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.
-- 2 Peter 3:15-17
Mat 15:2 — Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 — But he answered and said unto them Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Lev 19:4 — Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I [am] the LORD your God.
Lev 26:1 — Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
Do you mean the Catholic Church?
The second part of your statement - so what? Christ TOLD us to keep it. Are you postulating that simply because you can't, then it is irrelevant? What kind of Christianity do you profess to follow? This is the instruction of Jesus. Bona fide Christians do not profess anything else. Are you Christian?
Matthew 22: 34 19 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them [a scholar of the law] 20 tested him by asking, 36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Luke 14: 7 4 He told a parable to those who had been invited, noticing how they were choosing the places of honor at the table. 8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding banquet, do not recline at table in the place of honor. A more distinguished guest than you may have been invited by him, 9 and the host who invited both of you may approach you and say, 'Give your place to this man,' and then you would proceed with embarrassment to take the lowest place. 10 Rather, when you are invited, go and take the lowest place so that when the host comes to you he may say, 'My friend, move up to a higher position.' Then you will enjoy the esteem of your companions at the table. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." 12 Then he said to the host who invited him, "When you hold a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or your wealthy neighbors, in case they may invite you back and you have repayment. 13 Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind; 14 blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
As for your 2nd scripture..If you look you will see many ex Catholics/non Catholics in Haiti right as we write.. to say that people leave the Catholic church because they do not want to do "good works" I will partially agree with you..We do not want to do "good works " to be saved . Jesus completed that work.. We desire to do the works that God has ordained for us to do..FOR HIS GLORY not our good or glory
I'd suggest that you go back and read Matthew and Luke. I'd recommend that you dwell on the last verse of Luke in response to your posting. Jesus is not Calvin and the doctrines of Calvin cannot be found in Christ. Examples?
1 Timothy 2: 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
This is not found in Reformed documentation or doctrines.
John 12: 30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice did not come for my sake but for yours. 31 Now is the time of judgment on this world; now the ruler of this world 18 will be driven out. 32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
This is not found in Reformed doctrine.
Romans 10: 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. 13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
This is not found in Reformed doctrine.
2 Peter 3: 7 The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. 8 6 7 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard "delay," but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
This is not found in Reformed doctrine.
1 John 2: 1 My children, 1 I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
This is not found in Reformed doctrine.
John 1: 28 This happened in Bethany across the Jordan, 20 where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, 21 who takes away the sin of the world.
Matthew 5-25 contains the Beatitudes and also the three parables of salvation. These are also not found in Calvinism. I don't care if you think that you can follow the commands of Jesus or not. The point is that Jesus instructed us. You may not gainsay that and remain Christian.
You assume that the “church” is what is today called the Roman Catholic church...you know what they say about assuming....
Did he mean all of the New Testament? Because most of it hadn't been written yet.
Did he mean the Apocrypha? Because they are awfully inconvenient to the Protestants.
Did he mean the slew of gnostic and other noncanonical books that had and would be written?
No Christ did not lie, the issue is you do not know how to read scripture.
That does not say that one is saved by works does it?
It is describing the work of the SHEEP.
The Sheep were not ever GOATS. the Goats never behaved like sheep
This was a judgment of rewards , not salvation .
Mat 16:27”For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Luke 14:14”For thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”
(Rev 22:12)”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
1Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”
The Goats are condemned , not because they did not work, but because they had never repented and believed
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
They were not sheep because they did the work that God had ordained for them, they did the work because they were the sheep.
Gal. 2:16: “[T]hat we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified
Here Jesus teaching on salvation by works
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The will of the Father is that men believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved...
Hear Jesus
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Actually, telling me what I assume is MIND READING.
But for the record, you would be wrong. There is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. ALL who have been properly baptised are part of the Church.
The Bible is the word of God and last I look Christ is God. --RnMomof7
These do not apply to the Calvinist. I believe that they believe that they have already passed Judgement even before they were born, and are headed on that limo straight to the Reformed Heaven. Drinking Reformed (non alcoholic) champagne and cavorting with the Reformed virgins or whatever it is that the Reformed elect do on the limo ride to Reformed Heaven. I wonder if photos or videos would be permitted...
Wow, first mind reading and now making it personal.
It is describing the work of the SHEEP.
The Sheep were not ever GOATS. the Goats never behaved like sheep
I see, you believe that He was talking about actual livestock.
ABSOLUTELY.
It’s kind of interesting.
I mostly made generalized prayers toward Coakley’s being made an example of Godly discipline. I clearly trusted God to handle the details.
Still, I was made to sound about as evil as Coakley.
Amazing.
Yep, that's the way it is in Calvin's Casino, you're either in or your out and nothing else matters.
“”Catholics like to appeal to the church fathers.well fathers believed in Sola Scriptura:””
Wrong!They believed in the correct interpretation of Scripture that was given by the Catholic Church and they stayed inside the Church being obedient to Church teaching.
It’s completely ridiculous that you’re trying to use the Catholic/Orthodox Church Fathers as a license for being a protestant, against tradition and for personal interpretations of Scripture outside what the Church teaches.
NONE of the Church Fathers would agree with you at all!
You offered the writings of Irenaues,Ambrose,Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas etc...
Lets see what they said about tradition and the Church....
Saint Irenaeus
“Those, therefore, who desert the PREACHING OF THE CHURCH, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to FLEE TO THE CHURCH, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180)
Saint Gregory of Nyssa
“[S]eeing, I say, that the CHURCH teaches this in plain language, that the Only-begotten is essentially God, very God of the essence of the very God, how ought one who opposes her decisions to overthrow the preconceived opinion... And let no one interrupt me, by saying that what we confess should also be confirmed by constructive reasoning: for it is enough for proof of our statement, that the TRADITION has come down to us from our Fathers, handled on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 4:6 (c. A.D. 384).
Saint Ambrose
“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the CHURCH ALONE, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.” Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 (A.D. 388).
Saint Augustine
“Let us not hear, this I say, this you say; but thus says the Lord. Surely it is the books of the Lord on whose authority we both agree and which we both believe. There let us seek the Church, there let us discuss our case.” He goes on: “Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, with the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.” -
Augustine (”De unitate ecclesiae”, [on the Unity of the Church]3)
“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”-Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.
Saint Jerome
“My resolution is, to read the ancients, to try everything, to hold fast what is good, and not to recede from the faith of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.” Jerome, To Minervius & Alexander, Epistle 119 (A.D. 406).
Saint Basil
“Now I accept no newer creed written for me by other men, nor do I venture to propound the outcome of MY OWN intelligence, lest I make the words of true religion merely human words; but what I have been taught by the holy Fathers, that I announce to all who question me. In my CHURCH the creed written by the holy Fathers in synod at Nicea is in use.” Basil, To the Church of Antioch, Epistle 140:2 (A.D. 373).
Saint Thomas Aquinas
The formal object of faith is Primary Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the teaching of the Church which proceeds from the Primary Truth. hence,HE WHO DOES NOT EMBRACE THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH as a divine and infallible law does not possess the habit of faith’ [from Summa Theologica, II-II, q. 5, a. 3]
The Bible itself says....
“Many other signs also Jesus worked in the sight of His disciples, WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of GOD, and that believing you may have life in His Name.” John 20:30-31
“There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written, NOT EVEN THE WORLD ITSELF, I THINK, COULD HOLD THE BOOKS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN.” John 21:25
You called down an OT malediction upon another individual human being. That is a horrendous action. I may excoriate another person and that is bad enough, but if I pray that God obliterates another human being, then I have departed from the ranks of Christianity.
Hmmmmm....a rubber post. I can drag up what you posted, if you have forgotten....No one MADE you sound like anything. You are simply responsible for what you have posted, that everyone saw.
You've got to wonder whether they pray about US.
I agree with this. I cannot separate "good" from God.
The OTHER side is: How can we say God is God if he must conform to a standard of Justice, Goodness, Beauty, etc. Is that making some concept(s) or "ideas" or "forms" superior to God? (which is absurd)
I think things like Justice, Goodness, Beauty, etc., are elements of the nature of God. That's what He is by part of our expression of a definition for Him. So to me this would be no more controversial than saying God is consistent with being Himself.
I think it also leaks into questions of conscience. If somebody tells me that God wills that I blow up a plane full of mothers and children I don't need special revelation to know something is wrong with that.
It depends. What if it was God who told you that? He did tell the equivalent to prophets in the OT, like Joshua. And, we know in the future that lots of women and children are going to die because of actions by God. So at the least, we can't say that God would never do that.
Now, of course there are tons of nut cases who do evil because "God told them to". And I don't happen to think that God has ordered any hits in the OT style since the time of Christ (YO!, MD, I've got a job for ya' :). But in cases of wars, for example, I don't doubt that God has inspired certain men to do certain things, resulting in the deaths of innocents, for the greater good of winning a just war in God's eyes. For example, was it God's will that the Patriots win the War of Independence and was His hand all over the outcome of that war? The Patriots sure seemed to think so, and I would agree.
If Hitler, Stalin or Mao were alive, I do believe I would pray for their conversion.
It just goes to show you what five centuries of manipulating Scripture to fit predetermined conclusions will do...or it could be the result of “mind probes” that were inserted while being held captive in a UFO, but I’m going with option one.
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