Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
I asked first...what scripture teaches apostolic succession...
Now for Sola scriptura
Lets define it first
" What then is sola scriptura? " The doctrine of sola scriptura, simply stated, is that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the "rule of faith" for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. "
Jesus believed in Sola scriptura, Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.He always referred back to scriptures
The only time Jesus spoke to oral tradition it was to object to it,
Mark 7 : 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Jesus used scripture more that a 100 times in His teachings, but never oral tradition..
Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: "IT IS WRITTEN"
Luke 10:26-28
26He said unto him What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Acts 17: 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (the correct definition of sola scriptura)
2 Timothy 3:from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1 Corth.4: 6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
2 Corinthians 1:13For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end"
1 Corth 14:37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
Catholics like to appeal to the church fathers.well fathers believed in Sola Scriptura:
"They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1 - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1 Sola Scriptura ! "I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else." - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
Sola Scriptura !
"There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them."
- Hippolytus, Against Noetus, ch 9
Sola Scriptura !
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Sola Scriptura !
"We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth."
- Basil the Great
Sola Scriptura !
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”
- Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395) “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture."
- Basil the Great (ca.329–379) On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
Sola Scriptura !
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”
- Augustine (354–430) De unitate ecclesiae, 10
Sola Scriptura !
“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.”
- Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) Summa Theologiae, Question 1, Art. 8
Sola Scriptura!
"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages."
- Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)
Sola Scriptura !
Only the scriptures contain the teaching of the apostles and they speak to us through , and that voice is louder and more perfect than any man made tradition !
All are called to Salvation and a plan for Salvation exists for all. As St. Thomas Aquinas said (paraphrasing); "The salvation of a single sinner is a greater thing than the creation of the heavens and the earth. For the heavens and the earth will pass away but salvation is eternal."
That’s why wrath is one of the seven deadly sins — in this case, Wrath has resulted in a malediction. Maledictions smack of the occult; calling for bad events to happen to someone is the same as cursing them.
Cursing someone carries the hazard of demonic infestation, as does all persistence in any sin. That’s why I left the Religion Forum for a while, my participation was an occasion of sin for me.
Prayers for all to avoid this hazard, to follow Christ’s commandment and live in His Joy and Love, and to be blessed with His peace.
“Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil One.”
Lord Jesus Christ, risen Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
“Why do you pick the OT instructions over the New? Remember that we have Jesus labouriously instructing His Church for three long years, setting Peter up as the steward (the keys, remember?) and we have Paul telling Timothy that the church (not Scripture) is the foundation and pillar of Truth.”
I don’t. I interpret the OT in the light of the NT, believing BOTH to be the breath of God. I just like to read entire books, so to speak.
Peter was given the keys, and he used them. He opened the kingdom of Heaven to the Jews on Pentecost, and to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius.
But that did NOT set up Peter as Steward. At least, none of the other Apostles seemed to have thought him such, and nothing in his statements in Acts or 1 & 2 Peter would suggest it. In fact, in 2 Peter he wrote:
“13I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
6For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
The church IS the support of the truth...not the truth itself.
“The NT teaches (in the case of the eunuch) that it is the Church that is required for instruction in the Faith.”
And the church is supposed to use scripture: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
If the church uses scripture - for Paul was writing to Timothy about what he should DO - then “the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” Unfortunately, the Catholic Church & its doctrine goes well beyond the faith handed down by the Apostles.
With this false statement as with all your others, you mistake appreciation for and praise of Scripture for the "sola" mandate.
It is the sola of sola Scriptura which is false and, ironically, not mandated in Scripture.
Sola Scriptura is a false tradition of men.
In Calvin's understanding it seems there is a point where an individual who has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit knows the truth of The Gospel and because of our fallen nature can't accept the truth. If true it would reinforce our total depravity.
however, it doesn't exactly send a dozen roses to the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. :) That is, unless he is saying there can be real knowledge ("convinced in conscience"), but without true faith.
Wow, just when I think I'm starting to understand this you throw a curve.
What if Jesus is really referring to a period when he world recognizes Jesus is the LORD of Righteousness and an element of mankind is mad that the Holy Spirit didn't reveal this to them before?
Matt. 12:32...;but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Me too...I am old as dirt:)
I gave away my hard copy and now use on line sources.. (see we are not as old as we think:)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=20&v=3&t=KJV#conc/4
Try this.. it is a handy resource and has many different version too..
I forgot how to make links, I have not done HTML in a long time..sorry
Is this your definition, or did you obtain it somewhere else?
Where's the attribution/link?
Great post, and thank you very much for posting the Fatima prayer, which is part of the Rosary.
“Especially those most in need of Thy Mercy” — the first time I heard that prayer, when I was converting decades ago, I remember thinking, “I am one of those most in need of Christ’s mercy...”
She explained WHY a reasonable person would think Jesus assumed sola scriptura, apart from adding to things since He is God.
But feel free to show where Jesus used oral tradition as equal in authority to scripture...
Mat 11:30 — For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Praise God Christ has done the work of salvation for us..
Lots of good reading here:
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Five-Solas/Sola-Scriptura/
From one of the articles there:
“The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, Having Been Given By Inspiration of God, Are the All-Sufficient and Only Rule of Faith and Practice, and Judge of Controversies.” - A.A. Hodge
That is not how Christ taught us to pray. That is a curse.
May you be blessed with a servant’s heart, to love all humans as Christ did, even those who shed His innocent blood, He prayed for God to forgive them, for they didn’t know what they were doing...
I can't fully understand God's plan, but I sure can be thankful that He is going to bring the fullness of the Gentiles in before dealing with Israel.
Oh she did more than that. She said "Jesus believed in sola Scriptura."
Bzzzt.
Christ was a spoken teacher, not an author.
Shocking!
No it is not.
I am not bound by your false tradition of men known as sola Scriptura.
Sola Scriptura is a legal device (yes, Calvin was a sheister lawyer) devised by Calvin to overcome the Traditions of the Church and thus pave the way for his ecclesiastical ascension to a worldly throne.
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