Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Whenever we bring up something like this, the usual chorus starts crying that it's lies, all lies.
My understanding is that in a mass, the participants take part in the actual crucifixion, the original one. Do you know if this is true?
The Hebrews used a plethora of musical instruments in church. A plethora. They had everything, harps, drums, wind instruments, stringed instruments, maybe even castanets made from camel hooves, who knows
Great post. In fact I’d really like to see an open thread where Catholics explain the mass to us, but I don’t think they dare to.
My point, which I bobbled, is that (as some of the "Disciples of Christ" note) there is no explicit permission in the Bible to use musical instruments in Christian worship.That doesn't bother me. I'm not looking over my shoulder to see if I've broken some rule that wasn't stated but I should have known. This seems to me to be a paranoid way to be a Xtian.
NoGrayZone finds prohibition of the use of images in the Old Covenant, and, not understanding what we think our Lord promised to the Church, thinks that the OT prohibition is still operative. This seems to me to be an equally paranoid kind of Xtianity. The fault of idolatry does not lie in the image, but in the person who worships wrongly. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. Images don't constitute idolatry; people giving God's stuff to anything or anyone who isn't constitutes idolatry.
You all say that we are full of works and pride. I look at what you write about Mary, saints, and images and think that your faith means being fearful that you might offend God.
I like exuberance, myself. I love God. I love Mary, and Dominic and Anthony and Catherine and Therese and a whole bunch of folks.
So you all go ahead and be safe. I'd recommend burying the talent in the ground. Nobody will find it there.
While the church I’m in now doesn’t have one, I think it is fairly common for individual churches - including those in the SBC - to post doctrinal statements. Since the SBC has no downward authority, of COURSE the individual churches have that right.
If one is at variance with the SBC position, then their delegates could be challenged at a convention.
I think it is hard for those from hierarchical churches to understand that baptists are serious about the autonomy of the congregation.
The SBC Baptist Faith & Message says, “A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
I understand that these subtle differences in wording mean a whole lot to you, but they do not make any difference to a Catholic. The saint prayed to does not have any power that Christ did not give him. If the prayer is for something done: defeat my enemy, cure my illness, give me strength in my endeavor, then that's the prayer the saint will be joining. If your wish is granted following that, then the saint did it, glory be to God.
Mind reading? Childish much? Or DISHONEST much? Do you REALLY want an EXPLANATION? What does “open thread” have to do with it then? Why specify an open thread?
I would avoid attributing to others the fears one finds in oneself. I would also avoid the dishonesty we sometimes see where somebody SAYS "explain" but MEANs “defend” and that against the unreasoning howls of those who don't know the difference between insult and discussion.
Here are the thoughts of a Protestant poet:
I did but prompt the age to quit their clogsAstonishingly, Milton wrote this without ever experiencing the Religion Forum in full cry.
By the known rules of ancient liberty,
When straight a barbarous noise environs me
Of owls and cuckoos, asses, apes and dogs:
As when those hinds that were transform’d to frogs
Rail’d at Latona’s twin-born progeny
Which after held the sun and moon in fee.
But this is got by casting pearl to hogs,
That bawl for freedom in their senseless mood,
And still revolt when truth would set them free.
Licence they mean when they cry liberty;
For who loves that, must first be wise and good.
But from that mark how far they rove we see,
For all this waste of wealth and loss of blood.
The Church freed you from this judaizing heresy at its first council, in Jerusalem, in the 1c. AD, when the ideas about mandatory circumcision and abstinence form pork were discarded. See Acts 15.
That’s it, that’s the idea: this very quote. The law of Moses, so solemnly proclaimed to the Jews — to circumcise men, to stay away form pork, etc — was lifted by a sovereign decision of the Church.
But that is the same law that also forbade the making of idols. So, when you cite to me a part of the Law given the Jews, as if that is a rule governing the life of the Church, you are not logical. You have to show me where did the Christian Church forbid the making of Holy Images. I do not have to show you anything — I know what my Church teaches.
God disagrees with you...
That position is heretical... God didn't say it was alright to build a statue and bow to it if you have the right motive...God said DON'T build the statue...PERIOD...
In fact, God said one of the reasons he doesn't want you to build that statue of Mary is because he is a jeolous God...He doesn't want to share any worship, veneration or praise with anyone or anything that is on earth or heaven above...
No one needs idols, and frankly, apart from that toothy moron with the Properity Gospel, no one has them. What you need is show God that you love the Church in Heaven who He lead to victory. That is His gift to you. This is why iconoclasm and mockery of the saints is a grave sin.
You are confusing Commandments with Ordinances...Did what you refer to as a council also discard the 10 Commandments as well??? It's ok to murder people now??? God doesn't want you building statues any more than He wants you to murder people...
“That is the problem with the general umbrella of “Bible Believers” (tm) today. Many who identify themselves in this way, fashion their own beliefs out of snippets from the Bible and call themselves Christian.”
Interesting.
God told you so when the Church smashed iconoclasm to pieces at the Second Council of Nicaea in 8c. Since then, nothing changed.
No one mocks saints in heaven...Except you guys by claiming they have to stop in purgatory to continue to pay for their sins that Jesus Christ didn't quite complete...
Look a little deeper, you'll maybe find where your perceived mockery is actually directed to...
“”When you do have time, I will read that post with interest.””
Most of the info regarding Intercessory prayer and veneration of Saints and Sacred Images is in code of canon law and in the Catechism,however there is some very good encyclicals that touch on this written by by Leo XIII ,Pius VI and JP11
from Canon Law...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4D.HTM
TITLE IV.
THE VENERATION OF THE SAINTS, SACRED IMAGES, AND RELICS (Cann. 1186 - 1190)
Can. 1186 To foster the sanctification of the people of God, the Church commends to the special and filial reverence of the Christian faithful the Blessed Mary ever Virgin, Mother of God, whom Christ established as the mother of all people, and promotes the true and authentic veneration of the other saints whose example instructs the Christian faithful and whose intercession sustains them.
Can. 1187 It is permitted to reverence through public veneration only those servants of God whom the authority of the Church has recorded in the list of the saints or the blessed.
Can. 1188 The practice of displaying sacred images in churches for the reverence of the faithful is to remain in effect. Nevertheless, they are to be exhibited in moderate number and in suitable order so that the Christian people are not confused nor occasion given for inappropriate devotion.
Can. 1189 If they are in need of repair, precious images, that is, those distinguished by age, art, or veneration, which are exhibited in churches or oratories for the reverence of the faithful are never to be restored without the written permission of the ordinary; he is to consult experts before he grants permission.
Can. 1190 §1. It is absolutely forbidden to sell sacred relics.
§2. Relics of great significance and other relics honored with great reverence by the people cannot be alienated validly in any manner or transferred permanently without the permission of the Apostolic See.
§3. The prescript of §2 is valid also for images which are honored in some church with great reverence by the people.
...And from the Catechism..
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c1a3.htm#III
III. PRAYER OF INTERCESSION
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.112 He is “able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”113 The Holy Spirit “himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”114
2635 Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks “not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others,” even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.115
2636 The first Christian communities lived this form of fellowship intensely.116 Thus the Apostle Paul gives them a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel117 but also intercedes for them.118 The intercession of Christians recognizes no boundaries: “for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions,” for persecutors, for the salvation of those who reject the Gospel.119
More from the Catechism...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c2a3.htm
ARTICLE 3
GUIDES FOR PRAYER
A cloud of witnesses
2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.”42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.
2684 In the communion of saints, many and varied spiritualities have been developed throughout the history of the churches. The personal charism of some witnesses to God’s love for men has been handed on, like “the spirit” of Elijah to Elisha and John the Baptist, so that their followers may have a share in this spirit.43 A distinct spirituality can also arise at the point of convergence of liturgical and theological currents, bearing witness to the integration of the faith into a particular human environment and its history. The different schools of Christian spirituality share in the living tradition of prayer and are essential guides for the faithful. In their rich diversity they are refractions of the one pure light of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is truly the dwelling of the saints and the saints are for the Spirit a place where he dwells as in his own home since they offer themselves as a dwelling place for God and are called his temple.44
And of Course we have a long list of Early Church Fathers who spoke of intercessory prayer as well.
Here is just a few..
“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).
“[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).
“Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of bow much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,—whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory.” Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).
No, of course not. Christ Himself repeated the Ten Commandments, and strengthened them. But Christ said nothing against images, except, of course, that He Himself is in a sense, an image.
Post it
It is not consistent with sanctity to require a purgatory. Maybe some saints did go through it, who knows? — but it is not what we commonly think of saints. No payment for sins is occurring in Purgatory though, — Christ fully and completely atoned for any sin anyone has committed or will commit. In purgatory, cleansing in preparation to enter Heaven is happening. Most of us are not ready as we are.
Where did you do your studying?
It assumes I do not know or understand the Old Testament provisions against idolatry. And it assumes that you do. Your pronouncing my view heretical, you seem to say, is all that has to be done to establish that it is.
But the only thing it actually establishes is that we disagree.
So, as I say, go ahead and bury that talent in the fearful ground.
I will trust in Him and not be afraid.
The LORD is my stronghold and my sure defense, and He will be my savior.
Therefore
(while some look over their shoulder to make sure they have not offended Him by violating a expired command of the Old Covenant)
the rest of us will be drawing water with rejoicing from the Springs of Salvation.
And on this day and all our days we will say,
"Give thanks to the Lord and call upon his name,
for the great one in the midst of us is the Holy One of Israel."
But you don't have to dance if you don't want to.
Quick! Maybe somebody's digging where the talent is buried!
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