Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[RnMomof7]

Romans 11:7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

Romans 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Mark 4:1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3“Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times.”

9Then Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’

[RnMomof7]

Do you not see a contrast between "the god of this world" and "God" in this passage? Who is "the god of this world?"

Satan.. BUT we are not dualists we do not have competing gods, we have one sovereign God..

Satan is a tool in the hand of God..he can not act without the permission of God...read your bible :)

[Iscool]

Some mistake adumbration and explication for change. Some being taught by teachers who do whatever they can to paint the Church in the worst possible light, become wedded to the thrill of looking down on the Church and her teachings. As the Church explores and refines what she says, these people claim that she is flip-flopping, only because she doesn't say what their teachers assured them (a)she did say; and (b) gave them reason, they thought, to despise her.

You may call it refinement of doctrine but when you refine 180 degress, it's flip-flop...In the case of your church, it's flip-flop with some pretty icing on top of it...

Your earlier popes said no salvation outside of the Catholic church, period...

You claimed your church doesn't teach that...Well it certainly did...

Now you've refined the definition of 'no salvation outside of the Catholic church' to mean, EXCEPT for those who were babtized AND do not know of the Catholic church doctrine...

Those who are baptized and reject the teaching of your religion are of course, going to hell...

You guys are smoothe but you ain't Teflon by a long shot...

[RnMomof7]

2 Corth 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

What part of that is uncertain to you?

Exactly ONLY IN CHRIST is the veil removed..only Christ can remove it.. man can not remove the veil himself, neither can a priest or a sacrament..only those that have had their eyes open by the grace of God( saved )have the veil remove

1 Corth1: 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

Look to the cross.. not a church

[Religion Moderator]

Posters may argue the use of the terms in theology all they want, but maintaining order and/or keeping peace on the Religion Forum is my responsibility. The labeling is so that I can do my job.

Those who accept Papal Authority are welcome to organize under the label "Catholic" even though other Christians believe themselves catholic also.

And those otherwise Catholics who do not accept Papal Authority are welcome to organize under the label "Orthodox" even though some Jews or other Christians might consider themselves to also be orthodox.

Likewise, those non-Catholics who self-identify as "Baptist" are welcome to organize their caucuses by that label over the objections of all other beliefs that also baptize.

And Trinitarians are welcome to organize their caucuses under the label "Christian" even though the LDS has the word "Christ" in its name.

My responsibility, my decision.

[Cronos]

Are you speaking for all Protestants and

Well, Orthodox Presbyterians would speak for all of those who follow their own Machen-led teachings. So, for the OPC, they would not speak for Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Congregationalists, Evangelicals etc. indeed for no-one who isnt' a follower of their demi-god Machen and even among those, there are the various "pure castes" like the BPC (Bible Presbyterian C), APC (American...) and EPC-RF(Evangelical... Reformed...) which may differ in the levels to which they hold Machen and how far they diverge from Christianity.

[RnMomof7]

How do you get that?? God is not subject to any action of our will -- nothing we do can affect HIM. Actions of our will affect US.

Mr Rogers already answered this far, FAR better than I can, so I'm going to quote him.

Do you know how silly this sounds? God has a plan for this world that includes the works He has ordained for us, but if we do not do them no big deal.. What if Mary had said NO? What Paul had said no? What if Peter had walked away? More to the point..what if Judas had changed his mind and never went to the Jewish leaders?? Gods whole plan of salvation would have come to naught .

To say that God has a plan for you, but you can veto it makes you god not God.

To Mr Rogers, The grace of God precedes His work in us, it changes our mind and our will and we then will to be His and to be obedient to Him. We do need to obey, we do exercise our will in what we do, but it is Gods grace that lines our will with His.. The reprobate follows his will as well, and his will ,will always love his sin and deny the God of scripture..he is following the will of the natural man and is incapable of following the will of God without an intervention of the Holy Spirit .

[Religion Moderator]

Do not post that again without a source.

[Cronos]

Guys, the primary point of this thread (yes, surprisingly it had one!) was the naming of the Caucus. "i.e. that the Orthodox are "guests" on caucuses labeled "catholic" because somehow the Orthodox are not ontologically catholic." --> Let me ask you, Kosta, what about a caucus labelled "Orthodox" -- are we to understand that Latins, Maronites, Byzantine Catholics, Syro-Malabars can join this not as "guests"? And what of the Assyrians, Copts, Ethiopian Orthodox?

Finally, the word "Orthodox" is even used (wrong, IMO) by the Orthodox Presbyterians -- do you really want them on a thread discussing the Glorious Mysteries of The Church?

The caucus naming is imperfect, but that's human nature. I don't see a better one that is not too inordinately complex.

[Iscool]

- On 5/7/97, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary" and urged all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John -- "Woman, behold thy son!" and "Behold thy mother!" (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement "It is possible to understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ" (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

John Paul II underlined that "the history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the path that leads to Christ, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection." He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of salvation" (Ibid.).

According to the Vatican Information Service, your pope isn't too squeamish about worshiping Mary...

[Petronski]

Scripture:

...ONLY IN CHRIST is the veil removed...

Your own personal interpretation of Scripture:

only Christ can remove it.. man can not remove the veil himself, neither can a priest or a sacrament..only those that have had their eyes open by the grace of God( saved )have the veil remove

[the_conscience]

My responsibility, my decision.

I accept that. This forum is the property of the owners and they have the right to moderate this forum or delegate the moderation in any fashion they please.

However, since this site is ostensibly a forum dedicated to the preservation of the ideals of the founding of this country, and one of those ideals being that all men are created equal and that there is no class of men who can claim a higher status than any other class of men, the current caucus classification sends a contradictory message of the mission of this forum.

At this point I believe it is incumbent upon you, the Religion Moderator, to declare which denomination you belong to so we all know where you sit.

[Petronski]

According to the Vatican Information Service, your pope isn't too squeamish about worshiping Mary...

No.

According to you. You make that claim, your quote from VIS does not say that.

Don't you ever get tired of being so haplessly, relentlessly wrong?

[Petronski]

With a post like yours, mere hip-waders will not do

[Petronski]

Satan is a tool in the hand of God..he can not act without the permission of God...read your bible

More of the evil traditions of men of Calvin.

I can't imagine how you would begin to try to prove that using Scripture alone.

[Mad Dawg]

[Shakes head]

I see NOTHING in any of that which contradicts the proposition that Jesus Christ is my only savior. I see plenty that COULD, but nothing that does.

Maybe it will help if I say that texts of this kind are not written with Protestant fears (or fears of Protestant censure) in mind. We know what we mean. I know that I do not for a moment forget that the action of any saint is nothing more than God acting in and through him or her.

Whoever wrote this was not really asking himself how militant anti-Catholics were going to react to the text. I don’t worry that Mary’s parents are going to tap me on the shoulder and want to check my Marian theology whenever I call my little girl the most wonderful girl in the world,

There’s a part of me that wants to be more and more over the top in my praises and professions of love just to see how over the top the anti-Catholics will be in response as they lift their hems and wag their fingers at me.

But I will not cop to what you charge. And most of my Catholic homies won’t either. We can’t make you ‘get’ what you all don’t want to get. And I’m getting tired of trying. Some have their vision of what we are, what we think, and what we do. I guess that’s okay, but I don’t have to share the vision.

[Natural Law]

"According to the Vatican Information Service, your pope isn't too squeamish about worshiping Mary... "

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "worship". The Pope used the words "filial devotion", as in that of a son or daughter. Her "providential role in the path of salvation" acknowledges nothing more than that she was chosen by God for her role as the Mother of Jesus.

The actual words used by JPII in his address if properly translated should have been Marian adoration.

Form the Catechism of the catholic church:

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15).

[Iscool]

This process is to purify the physical body of the believer. The spiritual body does not need purification because a new creation will be born when the sinful one dies.

The physical body doesn't get purified until the resurrection, ICor 15:52...The only thing water baptism does to your body is to get it wet...

[Pyro7480]

As I pointed out on a parallel thread where this quote has popped up, John Paul II didn't used the word "worship."

The actual quote is In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community.

Source: The Vatican's own translation of the audience, which he gave (I would guess) either in Italian or Polish.