Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
You know, I agree with you
I had not believed Raving Calvinist ethics could have sunk any further, but then I read your posts to me this afternoon.
You seem to have no regard to the rules of this forum (that's the RF...religion forum).
Such difference indeed exists, but where does it say that grace is not sufficiently available to all who are called?
For effectual calling it would be nowhere because we obviously believe that sufficient grace is given to all who are effectually called. So, I assume you are referring to the general calling, which is to everyone. I think that verses evidencing that saving grace is not available or given to all include:
This last passage shows God as the sole actor, even when those He was acting on had no faith. God made us (believers) alive with Christ before we did anything or accepted grace (for the sake of argument). God obviously did not do this for everyone, all who are generally called.
It takes two posts to get the thoughts out?
Pause...take a deep breath. Say a couple hail marios, and a few paternosers and you’ll be alright.
Any luck on deciphering “RF” yet?
We finally gathered that Judith was claiming that linking to the Religion Forum was just as bad as you placing that bogus link to the website manufactured by folks hating the truth. Was that made by you? How did you find it?
Interesting view that she held, but not atypical for folks trapped in the error of the Vatican’s haze. We have called for them to release their sheeple, but apparently they are not listening.
Who is "we?"
Do you have a tape worm?
All three passages show that God gives mercy as His sovereign decision. He may choose the Jews despise their sinfulness and he may pass over the Egyptians, or choose Jacob and pass over Esau.
But these passages do not show that the grace is not sufficient for all called should they ask for it. Neither the Pharao, Esau, or a hardened sinner ask. On the other hand, recall the episode with the Canaanite woman (Mt. 15:22-28, Mk 7:26-30). Here, the decision is made to pass over the suffering of her daughter, but the woman asks again, and grace of healing is given her daughter.
This is Catholic evangelism. No rebuttal, just toilet talk. Must have really hit a nerve...
I’m trying to respond to you in your own base idiom.
“Who is “we?”
Do you find this as unutterably creepy as I do?
They communicate among themselves?
This is a BBS. Who the heck uses a BBS as a Have-A-Buddy?
Richard Fletcher wrote a book entitled _The Quest for El Cid_ that you might find worthwhile.
LOL.
And isn’t that a great relief to America.
You always refuse to answer hard questions...
Oddly enough, it was an argument over the Cathari that started me down this particular rabbit hole
Forgive me the efficiency of my words, but "who struck the first blow?" Is THAT supposed to be relevant? And if it is, how can it possibly excuse the wholesale slaughter that ensued?
In my order we venerate Peter Martyr, whose murderer later repented and became a Dominican. He slew an unarmed friar, or rather a friar armed only with the Gospel, with which weapon he conquered.
Do you refer to Peter of Verona, the Inquisitor of Lombardy?
As to sources closest to the action: I would respond that, as Tom Sowell says, one can prove almost anything one wants if one gets to say which data count and which don't.
But that is true of both sides of the coin, and we are back to "whom to believe." Obviously, those who were there must speak with the greatest authority - and their children, having a first-hand witness, needfully must be next - Within a generation, first hand accounts are gone, and the revisionists pick up their pens to bend the world.
[...] I rarely meet an historian who doesn't reveal in the first few minutes that he has an Ax to grind (present company excepted, of course.)
Oh, don't exempt me so readily from that statement. I most definitely have an ax to grind -What I can promise you though, is that I do know how to grind an ax -from both sides of the blade. Still the truth of it is not in favor of the Roman Church, because history itself stands against her. There is no way to justify her actions in civil society, not to mention as the representative of Christ.
I think one cannot underestimate the importance of a literature in which Wotan the all-father roams the earth as a werewolf, in which mothers in forced marriages send their sons to their brothers to be killed if they are not heroic enough. If that is the surround, if that is what the Church is trying to convert people from [...]
But that is not the truth of it - Certainly not in the Languedoc. It is fabled Aquitaine, the home of kings. Her people were adept, peaceful, and literate. Here we find the term "paratge" which is undeniably the patron of the English sense of nobility (noblesse oblige, mercy in battle, the stations of a noble heart). This is the place of troubadours and courtliness.
Surely the propaganda of the Roman Church can readily be denied. The victors wrote the history - but they didn't quite wipe out the culture... thanks to Britany and Britain... and those nasty itinerant weavers...
Look to the history with open eyes, FRiend, and you will see God working a miracle. But his agent was not the Roman Church.
exactly.....
But king of what?
[ s h u d d e r ]
“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
From that I’m supposed to learn that God gives mercy at random? How about learning that God gives mercy according to his desire - and he has consistently given forgiveness to those who believe Him. It was true in Gen 15, and it was true in John, and true everywhere else.
Romans 9 doesn’t address individual salvation, but the transmission of the promise to Abraham. There are 3 chapters dealing with the question, “Are the Jews still God’s Chosen People?” And note what Romans 9 says: “ 30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.”
Righteousness by election, or by faith?
Ephesians 2 says God saved us when we were dead in sins, but remember - we are also described as lost, blind, slaves, etc. And the Prodigal Son was described by the Father as dead, yet we find, “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father...”
Paul wasn’t writing a legal contract, but a letter - and he expected folks to read it as adults, and not take one word out of the context of scripture and make a new doctrine out of it.
“This last passage shows God as the sole actor, even when those He was acting on had no faith.”
Not hardly. Since I’m reading in John right now, I’ll once again offer a small excerpt of what John had to say about believing - just in the first 7 chapters, so my post won’t be too long...and as you review them, ask yourself if belief is something we are responsible to do, in response to God & evidence, or if it is a gift given after salvation:
Jhn 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Jhn 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
Jhn 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Jhn 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
Jhn 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Jhn 4:39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
Jhn 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Jhn 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Jhn 4:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”
Jhn 4:50 Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way.
Jhn 4:53 The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” And he himself believed, and all his household.
Jhn 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Jhn 5:38 “and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
Jhn 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
Jhn 5:46-47 “If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Jhn 6:29-30 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform?
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Jhn 6:69 “and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jhn 7:5 For not even his brothers believed in him.
Jhn 7:31 Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, “When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?”
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 7:48 “Have any of the authorities or the Pharisees believed in him?
Sorry - there is no way to read those verses and conclude God gives us belief after we are born again, or after we have been given life. Jesus taught the condition of God - that we believe. It isn’t subtle, or hidden, or difficult. It is hammered home again and again in scripture.
We are saved by grace thru faith, not by grace thru election.
You should know..
Does this make any sense to you? What on earth is this about? What "bogus link to the website manufactured by folks hating the truth"? What does any website have to do with me?
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