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To: Alex Murphy

Utterly unconvincing. Why?

1 - Belief in God’s sovereignty doesn’t conflict with free will. It depends on what God, in his sovereign will, desires. If his highest goal is obedient servants, then his power suffices to make them obey. If his sovereign will is to have sons who obey freely, because they love him, then free will is required - the ability to accept or reject God’s call.

2 - God isn’t a democrat. “Bruce Demarest helps distinguish between the general call to the unsaved that comes through the preaching of the gospel and the special call that is effected by the Holy Spirit’s secret work on the heart.6 The universal call goes out to all through the general proclamation of the gospel. All should hear the gospel message; however, only the elect will hear the inward or special call of the Holy Spirit.” Wayne Grudem also makes this distinction - that God has a revealed will (all be saved) and a secret will (just those I call effectually).

If I say one thing in public while working to ensure something else happens, I am a liar, and probably a democrat.

If God’s revealed will says, “3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” and “”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”, but this differs from his secret will, which is “I choose who can believe and force the rest not to...”, then God is a democrat.

Your author writes, “This does not diminish the human responsibility in any way. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are both in the Scriptures”. Wayne Grudem does the same thing, and says God’s picking who he allows to believe is consistent with men having a genuine choice. Nice claim, but neither man then EXPLAINS how they are consistent.

3. False dichotomy. “As an Arminian, I thought it was all up to me to save people.” Guess that means I’m not an Arminian. I have never thought or believed that it is up to me to convince someone to become a Christian. However, I am responsible to present the Gospel well. As Paul writes:

“19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor 9

Look at that again: “I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.” Who did Paul think he was?!

And what about Ezekiel?

” 1The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and make him their watchman, 3and if he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.

7 “So you, son of man, I have made a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.” - Ezek 33

It isn’t that I save anyone, but I cooperate with God’s will.

3 - This article glosses over the idea that God saves us first by creating a new heart, which then can have faith. But what does scripture say?

“6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” - Gen 15

” 14 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” - Joshua 24

6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10

Now, it is a well established rule of scripture interpretation that clear scripture statements be used to illuminate the difficult passages.

There is no doubt that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to Christ. There is not doubt that those chosen by God are called to live holy lives.

The question is how does God choose? Does he do it at random, based on his sovereign choice beforehand? Or is there something else?

And the clear teaching of scripture is that we are saved by grace through faith, not grace through election. In John 6 we read, 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

There is one “work” required: to say yes. “35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.”

That is not works based salvation, but grace through faith.


9 posted on 12/24/2009 10:16:00 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

“There is one “work” required: to say yes.” “35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.”

But Jesus said “No one CAN come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me draws him.” John 6:44

And to those who would say “yes and God draws all men to Christ”, Christ had already said in verse 37 “All that the Father gives me WILL COME to me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out.”

Ephesians 2:8 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no on may boast.”

What is the “it” that Paul is speaking about?


18 posted on 12/24/2009 11:06:00 AM PST by paulist ("For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." - Philippians 1:21)
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