Posted on 12/16/2009 7:38:57 AM PST by PanzerKardinal
On another day, on another thread I might argue with you about what defines Christianity and whether the JW's fit into that classification but this is not that thread. It's irrelevant to the nonsense which is occurring at St. Matthew's. I used the JW's as an example of judging a credo as being in error without the need to judge people, which is what you were suggesting. (FWIW, rejection of the divinity of Christ is a serious and insurmountable obstacle to the claim of Christian, in my opinion. If Christ is not God, then essential elements of the redemptive mission of Jesus are lost).
Do you know what syncretism is? It is the attempt to reconcile all types of religious belief and it was specifically condemned by Pope Pius XI in 1928. Nobody and no persons were condemned. Just a heresy. It is possible to identify error and condemn it without judging men.
Most assuredly I will check it out for myself, as it is on my TO DO: list. I intend to meet all the social agencies in Auckland, as time permits, as a part of my work with the Guardian Angels.
So you're open to the possibility of becoming a JW?
Really?
For my part, I try to go and see the uglier parts of life and often wish that some of these inner-city denizens could Christianize themselves, even a little bit, because they surely need it. As do we all — the difference between us and them is that we know it and are trying to do something about it.
Sure, but we don't want them to embrace just another form of error, right? We don't want them to swap one crazy belief system for another, do we? We want them to know the truth.
NZ is a country of compromise. The ultimate evil in NZ is to condemn something as evil. There is no black and white, just different shades of gray. It's a utilitarian, go-along-to-get-along, sort of a place. An ersatz, homogeneous society where standing out in a crowd is frowned upon and people are paralyzed by the fear of being different. Being a "good bloke" (as secular society defines it) is the limit of peoples' ambitions.
This mentality has likewise infected the Church in NZ, especially the Catholic Church which is the one with which I'm most familiar. Political correctness has completely neutered its ability to preach the Gospel as it should to young, urban Polynesians and as a result, people like you are left to deal with the results. The Maoris are lost. They urgently need to be evangelized with the Christian Gospel but that would require confronting their pagan beliefs and ancestor worship. A big no-no. The "racism" word would have to be confronted. The Church has put that one in the "too hard" basket. Instead, the Church has adopted pagan Maori symbolism and terms and is bending over backwards to try and be seen as pushing the cause of the "tangata whenua", which is really nothing more than a materialistic drive for land rites. I could go on but you get the picture. The Church has dropped the ball and is on a collective guilt trip along with the rest of the Pakeha as a result of Maori agitprop. They've reached the point of almost apologizing for being in NZ.
In the midst of this we have liberal, goofy theology being preached at places like St. Matthew's. It's a part of the problem. If you're looking to places like this to solve the problem, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.
The only blasphemies in that billboard are those that we insert if we have a filthy mind. A literal and fair reading of that billboard is true.
Therefore, if you see blasphemies in the billboard, they only got there one way: you put them there by linking the perfectly-innocent picture with the literally-true text and then reading into it a double-entendre. As I said: Honi soit qui mal y pense.
That is the tragic irony to this whole matter that seems to be getting lost: in order to accuse the billboard of being blasphemous, the reader must first create, in his filthy mind, the blasphemy. St Matthew's would have the perfect defense to that:
"...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." In fact, were I the pastor there, that is the precise response I'd give in my sermon to anyone taking objection to the sign. It is a clever hook, and no doubt it will reel in all sorts of fish. I would be stunned if that weren't his intention all along — if so, it worked brilliantly.
It calls also to mind other sayings of Christ, which include motes and beams, and gnats and camels. We ought to be careful when pointing fingers at others lest we condemn ourselves by so doing.
Which, being true, gives you something important to do on Sunday before taking Communion. And me too, as I initially did precisely what you did.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
Would their salvation be lost?
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Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” Matthew 1:23
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Been there..........done that....... :-)
Remember walking home from school with a moko scrawled all over my face after our Maori culture class.
You've been here much longer than me. I arrived in '96.
I bet you see big changes when you go back. I sure do. Not for the better, either.
During the 1960s and 70s, the mormons were proslytizing heavily among the Maoris...
The so called “Lamanites” of the Pacific..
BTW the big parade in ChristChurch last year was called a “Santa” parade...and not a Christmas parade...
There were several “multicultural” marchers from various religions...
and only two groups that mentioned Jesus...
Do you think it is important to know who Jesus is ???
Yes...
NZ used to be about 20-30 years behind here...
and still fairly Christian..
Now my relatives have cable Telly, cell phones, Internet etc..
More junk than I have...
NZ is on a par with the US...
and secular to boot...
But they still appreciate Americans...
No, I've been down that path many years ago when I dated a JW, and rejected it outright for reasons of doctrine. Perhaps I misunderstood you: I intend to visit with the groups at St Matthews (including the LGBT group) as meeting community social support groups is a part of my brief as a Guardian Angel.
> (FWIW, rejection of the divinity of Christ is a serious and insurmountable obstacle to the claim of Christian, in my opinion. If Christ is not God, then essential elements of the redemptive mission of Jesus are lost).
There are many, many Christians who would agree with you — primarily they would be Trinitarians (the majority of Christianity). However, it is not necessary to be Trinitarian to be Christian. For some folk, though, it helps to be.
> Do you know what syncretism is? It is the attempt to reconcile all types of religious belief and it was specifically condemned by Pope Pius XI in 1928.
Which is of vital importance to Catholics, but of no importance to anybody else. I am considering Catholicism, and I was studying it (need to get back to that) but as of this moment I am not a Catholic and, while the views of the Popes are interesting, they aren't a conclusive argument with me yet. That said, I tend to agree: not all beliefs can be reconciled.
(I'm also a Freemason, which may prove problematic to the Catholic Church. Obviously plenty to think about.)
> NZ is a country of compromise. The ultimate evil in NZ is to condemn something as evil. There is no black and white, just different shades of gray. It's a utilitarian, go-along-to-get-along, sort of a place. An ersatz, homogeneous society where standing out in a crowd is frowned upon and people are paralyzed by the fear of being different. Being a "good bloke" (as secular society defines it) is the limit of peoples' ambitions.
That, in a nutshell, defines New Zealand rather well and quite accurately. Aspects of that are changing, but it is slow.
Your assessment of the Catholic Church here is right in many areas: it does pay to shop around, as markomalley suggested to me, to find a Catholic Church where doctrine matters.
> In the midst of this we have liberal, goofy theology being preached at places like St. Matthew's. It's a part of the problem. If you're looking to places like this to solve the problem, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.
I have done a fair bit of work with these people as a Guardian Angel, mostly providing Patrol services for their Christian Youth events. They aren't aligned with any particular church, but they are aligned with the Maori Party and the Harawira family. I think their ministry to Maori and Polynesian youth is excellent: Ezekiel 33 Trust
I see NZ on the same post-Christian road as Britain.
There's too many sheep in NZ. Not the woolly variety........the two-legged ones who obediently follow whatever the prevailing cultural norms happen to be.
Progressive. We all know what that means. A countrerfeit Christ, ditto. The spirit of anti-Christ claims that Jesus is not who He said He was. These leaders have veered off into a ditch
How do you respond to this:
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (Mark 10:18)
To me, that sounds like self-deprecation. If I had time I would find other passages. Recall that Christ was, above all, meek and humble.
> He did not seek to joke his way into their friendship or avoid offending those that did not agree.
See what you think to this: A Lenten Commentary on Humor, Laughter and Frivolity.
One might call himself a Christian while maintaining a non-Trinitarian stance, but it is utterly impossible to be a Christian unless you can, in one form or another, be able to affirm the following:
We believe in one God the Father all-powerful, maker of heaven and of earth, and of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all the ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father, through whom all things came to be; for us humans and for our salvation he came down from the heavens and became incarnate from the holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, became human and was crucified on our behalf under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried and rose up on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; and he went up into the heavens and is seated at the Father's right hand; he is coming again with glory to judge the living and the dead; his kingdom will have no end. And in the Spirit, the holy, the lordly and life-giving one, proceeding forth from the Father, co-worshipped and co-glorified with Father and Son, the one who spoke through the prophets; in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the forgiving of sins. We look forward to a resurrection of the dead and life in the age to come. Amen.
Canon 1 of the second Ecumenical council states: The profession of faith of the holy fathers who gathered in Nicaea in Bithynia is not to be abrogated, but it is to remain in force. Every heresy is to be anathematised and in particular that of the Eunomians or Anomoeans, that of the Arians or Eudoxians, that of the Semi-Arians or Pneumatomachi, that of the Sabellians that of the Marcellians, that of the Photinians and that of the Apollinarians.
The above is not optional (although translations will vary, of course). It is also not exclusively a "Catholic" thing (as far as the Church in communion with the See of Peter), it is not exclusively an Orthodox thing, to my knowledge, with the exception of some new ecclesial communities that have come up in the past century or two (such as the Mormons, oneness Pentecostals, and JWs), this is something that is accepted universally.
They're few and far between in NZ, sadly. In Auckland, the clergy, almost without exception, are a bland group of nobodies whose homilies are either anecdotes or "can't we all just get along" type stuff. It's awful. I can't bear to go in St. Patrick's Cathedral anymore. It used to be a beautiful church and they gutted it. All in the name of bringing it up to date.
The only bright light I see is that there seems to have been a minor influx of Asian priests due to the priest shortage and they are more spiritual and orthodox men. Have you had a look at Te Atatu? I think that there are elements of traditional Catholic spirituality there for sure.
I grew up in the opulent splendor of South Auckland.........Otahuhu, Mangere East........so I know exactly what it's like and what you're dealing with. Back in the day, they were solid working class areas. Not rich but self-respecting and hard working. Now they're little more than crime-infested ghettos.
On what basis would you assert that Mormons aren’t Christian? They certainly do believe in Christ.
I believe the determination as to who is a Christian and who isn’t is best left to Christ. If Mormons say they are Christians then who am I to argue? They will be judged by Christ by His standards, the standards he applies to His followers — that is the practical implication of their claim, whether they realize it or not. It is a tough standard, and it may well be they live to regret claiming Christian provenance.
As a Freemason I have my own squabbles with Mormonism, but that doesn’t entitle me to say they aren’t Christians.
How do you respond to this:
“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18)
To me, that sounds like self-deprecation. If I had time I would find other passages. Recall that Christ was, above all, meek and humble.
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Jesus is God..
He was responding to someone who had called Him a “good man”, a good master” a “good teacher” a good Rabbi”
Jesus never said He was not good, just the human aspects of Him must not be worshipped...
Jesus never put Himself as God down...
He would have been criticizing God the Father if He did so...
and insulting the Holy Spirit...which is not forgiven..
Recall that Christ was, above all, meek and humble.
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Except when He was tossing people out of the Temple and whipping them and yelling at them and calling them Whited Sepulcars, etc...
Then he was loud and indignant...
Mangare East might surprise you now. Quite a strong Christian presence there, thanks largely to a family services centre that has brought various parts of the community together.
I was quite impressed when I first met with them: so much so that I accepted a seat on their Board of Governors about a year ago.
Otahuhu is, as you’ve said, a crime infested ghetto — nothing will change until people stop accepting it. The issue there is community attitude, not policing. That, and a lack of positive role models for the youth, and multi-generational welfare — you’d probably have seen evidence of that. They are now reportedly onto their fifth generation, some of them. Five generations, with no jobs!
I haven’t checked the church out in Te Atatu yet — I am in Waitakere City, so perhaps I should. I’ve been to Glen Eden and also to Titirangi, where they say Latin Mass.
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