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To: Heliand; Petronski
"The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants are saved, or that Protestantism is the way of salvation."

You better go back and do another Google search about Catholic dogma. The Church holds that sin is a willful act. It presumes a knowledge of the difference between right and wrong and a rejection of right. The Church does not presume to know what is in the hearts and heads of any individual. It even holds that those who have never heard the Word of God or never known of Jesus Christ (i.e.; pagan babies) are not denied the Kingdom of Heaven if they have not rejected what is Good.

I would also add that your false Catholicism is bleeding through in your presumption that the TULIP (5 points of Calvinism - Total hereditary depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints) apply to Catholic teachings.

451 posted on 12/09/2009 1:02:34 AM PST by Natural Law (.)
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To: Natural Law
The Church holds that sin is a willful act.

Yes it does, and She also holds that people cannot avoid sin their whole life expect by way of a special privilege by God, as we hold regarding the Blessed Mother.

Do you accept this Canon of Trent from the Decree on Justification?

Canon 23. If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more nor lose grace, and therefore he that falls was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

How do you presume these droves of non-Catholics without access to the Sacraments are able to do something which we Catholics have all hopelessly failed to accomplish with access to the Sacraments - live a life completely free of sin? If they cannot, how do they have access to the life of grace? If they do not have access to the life of grace due to their continual sinning and their lack of a means of forgiveness via Penance, how are they justified and saved?

The Church does not presume to know what is in the hearts and heads of any individual.

No the Church does not. The Church has no need of presuming this. She can simply preach the gospel and let the chips fall where they will, grace working on those chosen by God, who conform there will to Him.

It even holds that those who have never heard the Word of God or never known of Jesus Christ (i.e.; pagan babies) are not denied the Kingdom of Heaven if they have not rejected what is Good.

You do believe in original sin, right? Unbaptized children are lost because they are born deprived of grace. Do you seriously believe that the children of pagans hold some special position which gives them santifying grace and obviates the need for baptism? If that is the case, why do we baptize our children? If pagan children are full of sanctifying grace, then surely Catholic children are too! Is baptism just a social rite? I know many Catholics now treat it that way, delaying the Baptism of their children for months or even years because the baptismal party is more important to them than infusing sanctifying grace into the soul of their child to join them to Christ and rob the devil of his dominion over them

Furthermore, those who do not know Jesus Christ cannot be saved. The knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation as a necessity of means. Without it we are lost. This is because knowing Jesus Christ IS salvation. St. John 17.3, Acts 4.12, St. John 14.6, St. John 3.18, St. John 3.36, etc. This is so foundational to Catholicism that it always surprises me when someone denies it, but here we are again.

161. Believeing in Jesus Christ and in the One Who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:36; 6:40; et al). "Since `without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of His sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life `but he who endures to the end,'" (Vatican I, Dei Fillius 3; cf. Matthew 10:22; 24:13 and Hebrews 11:6; Council of Trent Decree on Justification, 8) [Catechism of the Catholic Church]

Could that be any clearer? Without explicit faith in Jesus Christ, one is certainly lost.

I would also add that your false Catholicism is bleeding through in your presumption that the TULIP apply to Catholic teachings.

"Who are the elect? You, if you wish it." (St. Augustine). That's not very TULIPy is it? I'm not a Calvinist.

483 posted on 12/09/2009 5:10:47 AM PST by Heliand (St. Pater Mavimeno, pray for us)
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To: Natural Law

“It presumes a knowledge of the difference between right and wrong and a rejection of right. The Church does not presume to know what is in the hearts and heads of any individual. It even holds that those who have never heard the Word of God or never known of Jesus Christ (i.e.; pagan babies) are not denied the Kingdom of Heaven if they have not rejected what is Good.”

Exactly! And this includes Protestants as well. The Church is very clear on this point.


555 posted on 12/09/2009 9:41:00 AM PST by BenKenobi
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