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To: Mr Rogers
I’ve argued with MarkBsnr on the issue of the divinity of Jesus before. I say it is clearly taught, and not just in John. When Jesus said, “I AM”, the Jews wanted to stone him. I think the Epistles make it clear, as well.

Jesus' statements of I AM only occur in John. The divinity of Christ is not stated overtly other than in John.

Those who also taught ‘real presence’ were not quite as dogmatic about it as some would have you believe. They often taught both ideas, or maybe even more.

Not really, not to the extent that you hint at. The point is that we have letters from Church officers explicitly on the Real Presence.

1,619 posted on 12/19/2009 4:05:15 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50

“Jesus’ statements of I AM only occur in John.”

My error. Sorry. Good catch.

Happily, we have excellent texts of John, dating back to about 200 AD, with small fragments earlier. Not much chance that the Catholic Church was sneaking in false doctrine via the Gospel of John!

A few points from the Synoptics, then:

“And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.”

“11And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.”

“29And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.”

41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

33And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

I could go on, but kosta50 has already told me he doesn’t read what I quote from scripture...but only God commands the angels. Only God deserves worship. Jesus applies ‘Son of Man’ and ‘Son of God’ in a unique way to himself. The demons ask if he is here to execute judgment...and the High Priest understood his claim to be blasphemy.

The Synoptics need to be understood in light of the OT, being written from a Jewish viewpoint. John was written later, and for a Gentile audience, and is more explicit for those who haven’t studied the Old Testament.

Real presence as taught by various church fathers is varied, but includes teaching that would not conflict with transubstantiation. However, the scripture passages, either in support or in rejection, are not disputed as texts, but in interpretation. We disagree about real presence, but not about what the words of the texts are...


1,620 posted on 12/19/2009 4:39:11 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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