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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis
Although Hebrew uses the word gods (many Jewish translations change it to "angelic beings"), oral Torah has a lot more "interesting stuff." I would like to see exactly what you are referring to. Just don't forget that Judaism was by all accounts a pagan religion; monotheistic, but pagan in practice.

By "pagan" do you mean not monotheistic or is there another more specific definition? (I ask only for economy's sake, if we don't have the same definitions we end up going around in circles. I don't want to spend hundreds of posts just to discover that we don't even define things the same way...like with the Protestant posters.) ;-]

The accounts of a meeting with gods/angelic beings/divine beings are accepted in Judaism and it is interesting that God (the Father? the Son? the Word?) would condescend to meet with anyone.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by Judaism being in a state of "apostasy" when Christ arrives. Why was it in a state of "apostasy?" I would say , to the contrary. Beginning about 300 years before Christ, the Jews returned to worshipping Eli and observing the Sabbath.

Christ original mission is to the Jews. Why? They had the Law, they had Tradition, and Rabbis, then what was missing? Why did they need Christ? The Gentiles are an after-thought, once the Jewish rejection is complete then they come into focus. The Pharisee/Sadducee conflict is one of tradition v. modernity. The Hellenization introduced new ideas and ways of life. Gymnos is nudity no? The Gymnasium was a direct threat to the Jewish way of life. Yet, the High Priesthood had been bought and sold and was a political office, not a Priestly one. John the Baptist by right of lineage should have been the presiding High Priest. Why was he baptizing in the wilderness?

I would say they did not quite return to worshipping YWH, but that the worst elements had been mixed in with the surrounding tribes and lost or carried off to who knows where. The Samaritans had a temple and their own rights and were an abomination to the Jews. Today the majority Pharisee view is lost along with its ideas and Judaism is almost exclusively a Sadducean sect. Shammai has lost out to Hillel.

If their worship were correct you'd not need Christ. A Jewish friend of mine thinks that the reason Moses was denied entrance to the Promised Land is because he'd been asked to share the "Gospel" with the Gentiles and refused. I don't know Jewish tradition very well, but it must have been influenced powerfully and in the wrong direction for God to send a corrective. They had the appearance of worship, but not the proper form or authority. This is thematic of Christ's interactions with the Jews, no?

1,309 posted on 12/09/2009 6:25:47 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; kosta50; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis

IIRC, the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection of the dead and the Pharisees did believe but that it would only apply to those who kept the law perfectly. Modern Judaism IS primarily Sadducean, in that even a belief in the afterlife is denied.

Let’s not forget, though, that the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement was a forsign of the coming Messiah. The High Priest entered into the Holy of Holies once a year to make an atonement for the sins of the people. It was always a blood sacrifice upon the altar, symbolic of a “life for life” covering for sin.

One more thought, too. In Genesis 1:26, the word for the creator “God” is ELOHIM in Hebrew, which is a noun of plural number. Curious, hmmm?


1,317 posted on 12/09/2009 9:22:44 PM PST by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: 1010RD; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis
By "pagan" do you mean not monotheistic or is there another more specific definition?

No, I said "monotheistic but pagan in practice." Even Egyptian religion at some point became monotheistic, and is precisely where monotheism began; yet I am sure everyone would consider ancient Egyptian religion pagan.

OT Judaism involved sacrifices just like all other pagan religions. It is essentially barbaric and to a large extent superstitious (that an animal's or man's blood somehow atones for your sins).

The only reason Judaism doesn't practice ritualistic animal sacrifice is because the Temple was destroyed (which was the only place where this could be done); synagogues are simply for prayers.

But the "other Jews," the Samaritans (all 800 of them!), still practice the OT Judaism, with animal sacrifices, and priesthood, since their Temple was not destroyed and is not in Jerusalem (and that was the reason they were not treated as Jews by mainline Judaism until the 19th century). In fact when Jesus chastises Samaritans he mentions that they need to recognize Jerusalem as the place where God is.

1,323 posted on 12/10/2009 3:02:17 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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To: 1010RD; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis
The accounts of a meeting with gods/angelic beings/divine beings are accepted in Judaism and it is interesting that God (the Father? the Son? the Word?) would condescend to meet with anyone./i>

Where is the Spirit? Why is it that western Christians never speak of the spirit as one of the three co-equal hypostates but only of Father and Son?

Anyway, there is only one God in the OT and his spirit is his powerful breath. There is no son, except for Adam. The "sons of God" in the OT are angels, and those who are anointed by God (Israeli kings).

God of the OT meets with his hosts ton find things out. In Job, he asks Satan "where did you come from?" The ancient Hebrew deity is by all accounts not all-seieng and all-knowing. There are parts of the OT where God has to come down to "see" for himself so he may "know!" he tests people so he may know that they will be loyal to him (i.e. Abraham and a slew of others). He regrets making man (Gen 6:6-7), etc. Orin the Garden he is "looking" for Adam saying "where are you?" and so on.

So, the ancient Hebrews did not see their God as "condescending" (humbling) himself to meet with others. He is a micromanager and is in everyone's business, confusing or misleading those he didn't like and helping those he does.

In his mood and manner of going about business he is very human, just immensely more powerful (another pagan characteristic). His meetings are corporate in nature, used to plan strategy and to delegate task (most of the gory stuff is done by angels, by every now and then he uses his breath, some "bad" breath it is!), not merciful condescension.

Christ original mission is to the Jews. Why? They had the Law, they had Tradition, and Rabbis, then what was missing? Why did they need Christ?

You have to read more about Jewish apocalypticism, which becomes part of Pharisiancal mindset following the Maccabean revolt against the hellenistic Syrian ruler. Up until the time of this revolt (circa 160 BC), the Jews believed that bad things happened to God's people for a simple reason: as basically punishment for disobedience.

The Jews of the 2nd century BC have returned to their faith and observed the Sabbath, and the sudden occupation of Syrians made the theology based deserved punishment inconsistent with reality. All of a sudden, bad things happened to God's people when God's people obeyed God!

Specifically, the hellenistic Syrian king was hellbent on making everyone have one religion in the area—Greek! He began persecuting the Jews for their Judaic observances, specifically for circumcision (which the Greeks thought was silly), killing not only those who perfomred it, but the circumcized babies but mothers of circumcised babies as well. This led to a revot otherwise known as the Maccabean revolt.

To explain this sudden misfortune the new religious party, the Pharisees, began to believe that just observing God's laws was not enough. Israel needed a warrior-king who will defeat Gentile enemies and establish the Kingdom of God (euphemism for Israel) on earth, and through whom the God of Israel will be known to everyone (obviously not as a their God, but as someone they should respect out of fear).

This warrior king would be anointed by God (i.e. meshiyah or messiah) and, as all kings of Israel he would be God's favorite son of Israel, i.e. the "son of God."

This is night and day compared to what the Christians made of the whole thing. They don't teach this stuff in Sunday schools!

Anyway, this belief led to further belief that there will be a "final solution" biblical style, with the the resurrection of the dead, etc. besides Pharisees, Essenes were also apocalyptic, and by all indications form the Gospels, Jesus was an apocalyptic Jews as well.

The Sadducees, who were the priests in control of the Temple, of course, did not agree with the apocalypticists and rejected all but the Torah (and I mean Mosaic books) of the Jewish scripture. They did not believe in the resurrection of the dead either; ancient Judaism never speaks of any resurrection, but only of a shady life in the underworld (Sheol, or hades in Greek), with varying degrees of comfort or discomfort.

So, that's why Jesus came only for the lost tribes of Israel (i.e. lost to hellenization) and that's why neither he no his disciples had any business going to the gentiles or the hated Samaritans (whom Jesus likens to dogs, which is one of the worst insults in the Middle East!).

1,324 posted on 12/10/2009 3:07:17 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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To: 1010RD; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis
John the Baptist by right of lineage should have been the presiding High Priest. Why was he baptizing in the wilderness?

Because he believed he was the messiah. Of course, the Christians will disagree. But John the Baptist actually has a religious following who trace their roots back tot he first century. John is portrayed in the Gospels as recognizing Jesus as the "One" but his followers do not agree with that. Their memories are different! :)

The fact that he was baptizing people is what made him a bad Sadducee. He didn't make it as a High priest because the Sadducee were not apocalypticists and he was, or that's how he is portrayed. I would say more akin to Maritn Luther of Judaism!

A Jewish friend of mine thinks that the reason Moses was denied entrance to the Promised Land is because he'd been asked to share the "Gospel" with the Gentiles and refused.

What kind of a Jew is he to say that? One of those "Jews for Christ"? The book of Numbers explains the wandeirng. Of course it was a punishment, one for each day the Hebrew spies spent in Canaan. God was offended by their lack of belief that God will protect them.

1,325 posted on 12/10/2009 3:09:25 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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