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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; annalex; wmfights; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; the_conscience

What is meant by ‘real presence’ vs transubstantiation?

For example, the Baptist approach includes:

“The supper of our Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night he was betrayed, to be observed in his churches until the end of the world as a perpetual remembrance [of him] and to show forth the sacrifice of himself in his death. It was also instituted to confirm the faith of believers in all the benefits in Christ’s death, for their spiritual nourishment and growth in him, for their further engagement in and commitment to all the duties they owe him, and to be a bond and pledge of their fellowship with him and with one another...

Worthy recipients, when outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly by faith, truly and in fact, not as flesh and body but spiritually. In so doing they feed upon Christ crucified, and receive all the benefits of his death. The body and blood of Christ are not present physically, but spiritually by the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

All ignorant and ungodly people who are unfit to enjoy fellowship with Christ, are equally unworthy of the Lord’s table, and cannot, without great sin against him, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted to them while they remain as they are. Indeed, whoever participates unworthily is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment on themselves.”

How does that differ from the Orthodox understanding?

And how does that differ from Catholic understanding?


1,238 posted on 12/07/2009 6:04:35 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; annalex; wmfights; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; the_conscience
Worthy recipients, when outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly by faith, truly and in fact, not as flesh and body but spiritually

What exactly does that mean to receive "spiritually?"

1,250 posted on 12/07/2009 3:25:53 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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To: Mr Rogers; kosta50; MarkBsnr; annalex; wmfights; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; the_conscience

“What is meant by ‘real presence’ vs transubstantiation?”

Transubstantiation is really more about an explanation of what happens at the consecration as a result of the epiklesis. In other words, the Latin Church seemed to feel that since they noticed that the Body and Blood of Christ still looked and tasted like bread and wine after the consecration, an explanation was required and thus all the talk about substances and accidents. In Orthodoxy, there is no explanation for what is a divine Mystery, nor is there any need for one. It is all a matter of Faith, Mr. R.

I found this comment from, of all places, the Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Its actually pretty good:

“The eucharistic liturgy of the Orthodox Church is a kind of mystery drama in which the advent of the Lord is mystically consummated and the entire history of salvation—the incarnation, death, and Resurrection of Christ the Logos, up to the outpouring of the Holy Sprit—is recapitulated. The Orthodox Church also attaches the greatest value to the fact that within the eucharistic mystery an actual transformation of the eucharistic elements in bread and wine takes place. This is not the same as the Roman Catholic dogma of transubstantiation, which teaches that the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the body and blood of Christ, though the properties of the elements remain the same, when the priest consecrates the bread and wine.

“According to some Orthodox authorities, the Orthodox view is similar to the Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence. The essential and central happening in the Orthodox liturgy, however, is the descent of the resurrected Lord himself, who enters the community as “the King of the universe, borne along invisibly above spears by the angelic hosts.” The transformation of the elements is, therefore, the immediate emanation of this personal presence. Thus, the Orthodox Church does not preserve and display the consecrated host after and outside the eucharistic liturgy, as in the Roman Catholic Church, because the consecrated offerings are mystically apprehended and actualized only during the eucharistic meal.

In the Roman Catholic mass, the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is strongly emphasized, but it is less so in the Orthodox liturgy. This is because in the Orthodox liturgy the Eucharist is not only a representation of the crucifixion sacrifice (as in the Roman mass) but also of the entire history of salvation, in which the entire congregation, priest and laity, participates. Thus, the Orthodox Church has also held fast to the original form of Holy Communion in both kinds.”

“How does that (Baptist belief) differ from the Orthodox understanding?”

Well, we believe that the bread and the wine are really the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. That they taste like bread and wine is of absolutely no consequence, concern or significance. This is no surprise. Matt. 9:26.

The consecration and Eucharist are indeed a remembrance of Christ’s mission. As we say during the consecration:

“Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming,...”

But it is, for us, more than that. After the epiklesis, the priest prays:

“So that they (the Body and Blood) may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.”

Unworthy reception of the “Holy Gifts for the Holy People of God” is to eat and drink to condemnation and so we all pray before we approach the chalice, “with fear, faith and love”:

” I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.

How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me.

Loving Master, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these holy Gifts be to my condemnation because of my unworthiness, but for the cleansing and sanctification of soul and body and the pledge of the future life and kingdom. It is good for me to cling to God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.”

How does this differ from your beliefs? I don’t know. From that of the Latins? Well, that’s probably a long, long post!


1,258 posted on 12/07/2009 6:01:32 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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