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To: kosta50
Origen is a perfect case in point where he simply could not accept where the Church developed its doctrine Actually, Mark, Origen was the genius who developed much of the Orthodox doctrine, including Mariology. I believe he is the first to assert Mary's ever-virginity and call her Thetokos (Mother of God).

Orgien, his teachings teachings and his followers were condemned by the post-Nicene Church for a number of his teahcingson soterology, souls, Christology, resurrection, etc.

He died either in 253 or 254 AD, which – way before the Nicene Council (325 AD), so there was no "church doctrine" for him to accept or not to accept.

True, true and sort of true. http://www.veritasvosliberat.com/uploads/heresy_in_origen_and_origenism.pdf says that:

The bishop of Alexandria, Bishop Demetrius, condemned Origen because of Origen’s supposed ordination to the priesthood. Origen was excommunicated from the Church of Alexandria by a synod called by Bishop Demetrius. At a second synod Origen was removed from his office of presbyter.13 The exact motives of Bishop Demetrius for doing this to Origen cannot be accurately determined. It seems very probable that one reason was jealousy because Origen was ordained a priest in Caesarea rather than in Alexandria, and Alexandria was his home diocese.

It is also speculated that Origen was censured because of the heterodox teachings in his writings.14 This, however, conflicts with other sources that claim that Origen’s teachings were only determined to be heterodox at a later date as Church teachings were defined more clearly. It could be that his ideas, while not heretical at the time, were far from the norm and therefore caused worry among theologians. Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest that Origen’s self-castration invalidated his reception of Holy Orders.

At any rate, Origen, while doing great works and developing doctrines that we hold to this day, was recognized as going outside of the 'norm' whatever that was at the time and into heterodoxy.

The subsequent councils merely confirmed what was being slowly recognized at the time.

Despite his Gnostic and heterodox beliefs, Origen's inlfuence on Church orthodoxy (especially Eastern Church) remains undisputed. He is easily the most influential 3rd century theologian among Christain Apologetics for the Greek Church, pretty much what his senior, 2nd century Tertullian was for the Latin Church (although Tertullian never strayed in Gnosticism; he became a Montanist instead).

Neither Tertullian nor Origen can be underpraised for their contributions to the Church - of the two, though, Tertullian appears to have come through less sullied.

1,209 posted on 12/06/2009 1:21:22 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; 1010RD
Mark, excommunication in the eastern Church today and in the early Church did not mean the same as anathema. The Catholic Church equated even officially the excommunication with the anathema as late as 1912. Excommunication is something that takes place in Orthodox churches all the time.

For instance, Russian Church outside Russia was for hsitorical reasons of gratitude in communion only with the Serbian Orthodox Church in America. Women who used to be caught attended divine liturgy four weeks a month would be exocmmunicated for a time being because the priest knew one one of those wekeends the women was me struating and should have stayed outside.

Radical bishops of the types we encounter in the Catholic community in the US, would all be excommunicated by now. That would effectively mean ostracized by other bishops. You may call it "breaking diplomatic relations" with some bishops, isolating them, giving them time to reflect.

Excommunication takes place in Orthodox churches all the time with people who commit grave errors of judgment. They are denied communion as part of their penance. The Orthodox don't do 10 Hail Marys and Our Fathers and be done. They are denied communion as an opportunity to reflect on their grave sins until thye can repent. The length of excommunication period is determined by economy (oikonomia) as judged best for the helath of the individual's soul.

The fact that the Bishop of Alexandria denied Origen communion means he rubbed him wrong aboutt something. It could have been anything. It would have been hard to "throw the book" on Origen when the Church did not have an established and agreed-upon doctrine, canonized by concensus patrum.

What took place 300 years after Origens' death was a General Synod's trial and condemnation, followed by an anathema — literally declaring him a non-Christian, i.e. a heretic. This is a far cry from simple excommunication.

Anathema, just as excommunication, in the Latin west took on a distorted meaning, and became synonymous with damnation rather than condemnation. Catholic Bishops took it upon themselves to judge in place of God by sentencing someone to hell by excommunicating and anathematizing those who disagreed with them or the Church. (See the movie "Becket." There is even the excommunication cultist ritual of the Catholic Church on Youtube in connection with that film).

The Fifth Ecumenical Council that condemned Origen had legal doctirnal grounds to do so, since some of his teachings were contrary to the canonized Church doctrine. In his lifetime, no such canonical basis existed. It was a decision of a bishop and not the Church as a whole (consensus patrum).

Origen was never declared a non-Christian during his life time, nor did anyone in the Church have the authority to do so.

1,217 posted on 12/06/2009 3:23:34 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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