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To: kosta50
Fascinating and mostly how I understood it. What I meant regarding Irenaeus, who I read translated in English (I know...), is that he never used the word Trinity nor expressed the modern (post-trinitarian) formula for God.

This inevitably leads back either to pagan polytheism, or back to monotheistic Judaism, which had to be stopped.

The whole purpose of the Nicene Council was to reaffirm monotheism without reverting to Judaism or slipping further into paganism with God the Father being basically no different than Zeus. So, a new triniatrian formula had to be found.

I think that is a perfect summary of what happened and what was happening to the early Church. Belief in the Trinity is not a Biblically stated doctrine of salvation. Protestants who accept the Trinity are simply behaving as a Catholic sect/cult that accepts some, but not all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. To pretend otherwise is not an honest appraisal of the history or the Bible - Catholic or Protestant versions.

What I think is missing from the modern doctrine is the concept of theosis. We read that Christ grew from grace to grace. It is a clue, I believe to a doctrine since missing from the modern Church. Catholic doctrine includes some sense of possible progress, even after death. Cannot the formula be: follow the precepts/behavior of Christ (works) and Christ will fill the gaps needed (faith) to in the end become an heir, a full heir with Christ? Am I misunderstanding something? What do you know or think about theosis?

1,178 posted on 12/05/2009 1:43:47 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

Good points. Will get back to you later. Theosis is the term the Orthodox use for what the western Church calls ‘salvation.’ Have to go.


1,180 posted on 12/05/2009 2:00:00 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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To: 1010RD; kosta50
What I meant regarding Irenaeus, who I read translated in English (I know...), is that he never used the word Trinity nor expressed the modern (post-trinitarian) formula for God.

Correct. That belief was not developed to the extent that it was at Nicene. These early guys labored their whole lifetimes to get us to where we so easily accept ourselves now. Origen is a perfect case in point where he simply could not accept where the Church developed its doctrine.

Belief in the Trinity is not a Biblically stated doctrine of salvation.

No, however, if one believes in an unrecognizable Jesus or God, then one is pagan.

We read that Christ grew from grace to grace.

Which on the face of it is so much gibberish. Christ is God. We do not believe that God 'grows' since he is the be-all and end-all and is one with the universe. Indeed, there is no universe without God; God exists without the universe, since it is His creation. We believe that 'time' was invented for us. God certainly has no need of it.

Cannot the formula be: follow the precepts/behavior of Christ (works) and Christ will fill the gaps needed (faith) to in the end become an heir, a full heir with Christ?

Both elements are required, although, I don't believe that the order is necessarily a given. God enables us to reach out to Him and gives us all the help and aid that we require. What we do with that aid, or simply refuse it, is up to us. A further question: what would be your definition of 'full heir with Christ'? One might mistake that to be a Sidney Rigdon development if one is not careful.

1,182 posted on 12/05/2009 2:45:16 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: 1010RD
Belief in the Trinity is not a Biblically stated doctrine of salvation

What is the Biblically stated 'doctrine' of salvation?

What I think is missing from the modern doctrine is the concept of theosis.

Not in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is salvation. It is becoming 'god-like,' being restored to the likeness of God which was lost in Eden. It means dying unto oneself, and to the world, and, through grace, being restored.

Those who are like Christ are saved (see Matthew 25).

Cannot the formula be: follow the precepts/behavior of Christ (works) and Christ will fill the gaps needed (faith) to in the end become an heir, a full heir with Christ?

Matthew 25 doesn't ask for faith; neither do the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). Basically, it boils down to this: do the right thing with the right intention (love in your heart).

Other writers (Luke and Paul for example) see salvation differently.

1,184 posted on 12/05/2009 8:21:37 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you)
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