Posted on 11/24/2009 4:10:44 PM PST by NYer
Statistics released Nov. 24 by the FBI show hate crimes against religious groups increased by 9% from 2007 to 2008.
USA Today reported that in 2008, there 1,519 incidents against people based on their religion, the statistics show.
The figures reveal that while anti-Jewish attacks made up the highest percentage of the attacks (17%), there was an increase in hate crimes against Catholics — 75, up from 61 in 2007.
Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said the increase may be due to the Church becoming more vocal on life issues such as abortion and homosexual unions.
As the Catholic bishops take a stronger stance, he said, it filters down to the laity, and as more traditional Catholics become more vocal, they become targets for those who disagree with them.
“Unfortunately, it spills over into violence,” he said, adding that it’s just going to get worse before it gets better.
“I’ve never seen our country so culturally divided and so polarized,” he said. “These issues are not going away.”
It's called leading the congregation into error by the sermon of pastor Chucky or Joey who has a worthless theology degree from Micky Mouse school of theology.
“It’s called leading the congregation into error by the sermon of pastor Chucky or Joey who has a worthless theology degree from Micky Mouse school of theology.”
Are you feeling bitter tonight?
I'm feeling loving and living in reality
On multiple posts in the past, you have argued the following text in scripture teaches Purgatory (”a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions”):
” 5What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.” - 1 Corinthians 3
And you then complain that Baptist pastors are “leading the congregation into error by the sermon of pastor Chucky or Joey who has a worthless theology degree from Micky Mouse school of theology.”?
Living is reality isn’t how I would describe your teaching, but each can read and decide for themselves.
All can read this sermon on the same topic, and see if Protestants are “leading the congregation into error by the sermon of pastor Chucky or Joey who has a worthless theology degree from Micky Mouse school of theology.”
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1818
Your post reflect someone who is still searching
I've made my share of misstatements and mostly have been corrected by those I would call friends here on FR. Just passing it on.
Happily, we have excellent texts of John, dating back to about 200 AD, with small fragments earlier. Not much chance that the Catholic Church was sneaking in false doctrine via the Gospel of John!
The sources I've just looked at agree that substantially complete John is available back to the early 3rd century - but remember that that is more 150 years after Jesus Ascended and more than 100 years after it was written. And, as well, please remember that there were over 60 Gospels that we have at least fragments of, with another 20 or so that are referred to. The selection process resulted in the choosing of John.
A few points from the Synoptics, then:
There is nothing explicit in any of these references. Son of God has referred to many humans, and even to the giants in Genesis. The verses here could simply refer to a man of significance in the eyes of God. Not explicit. They hint, but you must admit, without John, the Synoptics and Paul do not call out the divinity of Jesus. We have to read John, then backwards.
Real presence as taught by various church fathers is varied, but includes teaching that would not conflict with transubstantiation.
The problem here is that the various Fathers wrote much, but it is not their own interpretation that counts; it is the Consensus Patrum. That is the major difference between sola interpretura and Church teaching. The Consensus Patrum is the teaching of the Church, not the opinions of individuals.
Are you feeling bitter tonight?
It sounds more like "Goofy" to me.
“The verses here could simply refer to a man of significance in the eyes of God.”
Nope. Only God can accept worship without heresy and blasphemy. Only God commands the angels, or executes judgement on demons.
Explicitly God, or a blasphemer.
“The problem here is that the various Fathers wrote much, but it is not their own interpretation that counts; it is the Consensus Patrum. That is the major difference between sola interpretura and Church teaching. The Consensus Patrum is the teaching of the Church, not the opinions of individuals.”
A fairly concise and accurate description of why Catholics and Protestants disagree. It also allows for respectful disagreement, rather than the bitterness that sometimes overtakes these threads.
Purgatory is simple.
You’re not getting into heaven until you have “paid the last penny”of sin either through contrite confession while alive or through cleansing.
The Church has taught this before the Baptist ever existed
“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more—not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).
“[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, ‘to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).
The divinity of Jesus as Almighty God incarnate is throughout the entire Bible. OT as well as NT. I am amazed that one would say it is only taught in the gospel of John. Should I start listing ALL the scripture references again...were they even acknowledged the last time?
Markbsnr...you're making it sound like the Catholic church in Rome came up with the entire doctrine. Is that what you genuinely believe???
Utterly in conflict with what is explicitly taught in scripture...
“”It sounds more like “Goofy” to me.””
Does it make you feel superior to be part of your special crowd of FR.
I consider it an honor to be called goofy by you and satan
Taught by you and pastor Chucky’s view of scripture means nothing
History is not on your side
Your religion may have taught this, but it completely contradicts the entire reason for Jesus Christ's death on the cross.
For example, if you commit a sin, let's say a MORTAL sin, you go to confession, correct? You confess your grave sin to the priest, show proper contriteness and relay the knowledge of the gravity of your sin to the priest. Your priest then says, "Your sin is forgiven, go and ... (say a rosary, or give an amount of money to the poor, or whatever is the standard penance for the particular sin).". Can you possibly equate the penance you perform as being of the same propitiational proportion as the suffering and death of our Lord??? Is saying five Hail Marys and two Our Fathers "paying the last penny of sin"?
Purgatory is only "simple" if you believe you must help Jesus pay the penalty of your sin.
Let's examine this a little closer. http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=503 gives:
A study of the Hebrew word shachah and the Greek word proskuneo reveals that both these words mean “to bow down.” The Hebrew word shachah (Strong’s number 7812) is used of bowing or prostrating oneself, often before a superior or before God. [1] In the King James Version, it is translated by a number of different English words, including: “worship” (99 times), “bow” (31 times), “bow down” (18 times), “obeisance” (9 times), and “reverence” (5 times).
The Greek word proskuneo (Strong’s number 4505) comes from the Greek words pros, “to” or “toward,” and kuneo, “to kiss.” It literally means to kiss the hand to (toward) someone in token of reverence, and among the Orientals, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence. Hence, in the New Testament it means kneeling or prostration to do homage or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. [2]
The examples of “worship” in the Bible confirms that in the biblical culture, people bowed down before those to whom they wanted to show respect or honor. Lot “worshipped” (shachah) the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1). Moses “worshipped” (shachah) his father in law, whom he respected and honored (Exod. 18:7). Abigail “worshipped” (shachah) David. She honored him by prostrating herself before him. These three examples can be multiplied many times over, but they show that when someone wanted to honor another, he would fall down before him. The act of falling down is called “worship,” and reveals the heart of the worshipper—respect and honor towards the one being worshipped.
Many cultures besides the biblical culture have the custom of bowing to show respect or honor. The Japanese and Chinese bow to those they respect. In the courts of Europe it was customary to bow (or for women, to curtsy) to those of higher rank. In fact, even in the colonial culture of the United States it was common for men to bow in respect of one another and for the women to curtsy to show honor or respect, and occasionally we still see bowing and curtsying today.
In some churches the custom of bowing before God has been modified into kneeling or genuflecting. For example, in the Roman Catholic Church people often genuflect, a shallow bow of the knee, to show their respect to God. In most protestant churches, although people no longer perform a full bow before the Lord, people “bow” their heads in prayer as a sign of respect. It is important to realize that in both biblical and modern “worship” (bowing down), the outward act of bowing reveals the inner heart of respect and honor.
Why do we use the English word “worship” at all? Our word “worship” comes from the Old English “weorthscipe,” which means worthiness. We “worship” someone because they are “worth” the respect they receive. In British English, “Worship” was actually used as a title for various officials, usually magistrates and some mayors. Thus even in the derivation of the English word “worship” we see that it was not exclusively used of God or Jesus, but was used to designate someone worth the respect they received.
When the words shachah appears in the Hebrew text, or proskuneo in the Greek text, they usually refer to the action of bowing down, and we can translate them that way into English, as the following examples show.
Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down [shachah] before the people of the land, the Hittites.
Genesis 33:3 He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down [shachah] to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].
Genesis 42:6 Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down [shachah] to him with their faces to the ground.
Matthew 18:26 “The servant fell on his knees [proskuneo] before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
It is clear from the verses above that people “bowed down to,” or “worshipped” other people. A study of the Greek and Hebrew words and how they are translated shows something else—something that has misled many Christians. In many Bible versions, when the words shachah or proskuneo are used of one person to another, the translators use the English words “bow down” or something similar. However, when shachah or proskuneo refers to a person “bowing down” before God or Jesus, the translators almost always use the English word “worship.” The three examples below are typical.
Exodus 24:1 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship [shachah] at a distance,
Exodus 33:10 (NASB) When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship [shachah], each at the entrance of his tent.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship [proskuneo] in spirit and in truth."
The verses above reveal a pattern that has caused many Christians to misunderstand “worship.” When the Hebrew or Greek words for worship refer to men “worshipping” men, the translators use the English words “bow down.” However, when the act of worship is toward God or Jesus, then the translators use the English word “worship” in their Bibles. This way of translating understandably leads the English reader to believe that only God and Jesus are “worshipped.” How can a person reading the English Bible be expected to know that biblical “worship” is not just for God and Jesus when in his Bible the word “worship” is only used in reference to them? He cannot. Thus, although it is sad, it is understandable that people reading the English Bible conclude that Jesus must be God because Jesus is “worshipped.”
As Bible students, we must get the facts straight. “Worshipping,” i.e., bowing down to someone, shows honor and respect. It can be toward anyone the person wants to honor, even, as we saw earlier in the case of Lot, a total stranger. People “worshipping” Jesus does not make him God any more than Abraham “bowing down” before the Hittites makes them God. The Greek and Hebrew need to be translated consistently. When they are, we can see that people “worshipped” other people and God (or they “bowed down to” other people and God). In practical application, superiors, kings, God, and Jesus get most of the honor or worship.
Interesting, this use of the term 'worship'. Not saying that I entirely agree with it, but it is an example of 'worship' that is Biblically sound that the Church simply declares to be void.
You threw the "Mickey Mouse" comparison out there, not me. And it was "feeling goofy" - I didn't call you Goofy? C'mon!
Jesus dying on the Cross means imitation and sacrificing of your own life and expecting a cross. It is not a ticket to paradise on this earth.
If your living a life without a cross here you're in trouble of losing salvation and making a mockery of our Lord
It is not explicit; it is hinted at only. Only portions of John are explicit enough to call it Scripturally defined.
Should I start listing ALL the scripture references again...were they even acknowledged the last time?
Yes, they were; the extra-Johannine references you provided merely referred to Son of God, or to the status of Jesus as beyond that of ordinary man, but not stating explicitly that He was divine.
Markbsnr...you're making it sound like the Catholic church in Rome came up with the entire doctrine. Is that what you genuinely believe???
If the Church had not decided on John as Scripture (with the Holy Spirit guiding it of course), then there would have been no great evidence for the divinity of Jesus, and therefore no Trinitarian doctrine. Now, I have not read the other Gospels that we have the text of, in order to determine if Jesus is called divine there, so I have no opinions on their utility.
I respectfully agree.
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