Anti-Catholicism (An Op-Ed the NY Times refused to publish)

Archdiocese of NY ^ | October 29, 2009 | Archbishop Timothy Dolan

[allmendream]

And what then is YOUR idea of “legitimate” government if not that of a Constitutional Republic with elections?

[annalex]

One where moral issues are not put to the vote.

[allmendream]

Whose morality?

You suggest that anything decided upon by the majority of American voters that contradicts your morality makes the Government of the USA illegitimate?

What system do you think would be preferable? Where a ruling religious council can chose which candidates are morally unfit to run for office and be able to strike down laws that they see as immoral? That is the system in Iran, and the people don't seem to be big fans of it.

[annalex]

I say that anything decided upon by the majority of American voters that contradicts universal morality makes the Government of the USA illegitimate.

[allmendream]

Yet left unanswered was what form of government you would envision that would maintain your precious moral legitimacy.

How would “legitimacy” be restored? By overturning the will of the voters? By what mechanism?

An Iranian style council of religious leaders?

Do you think it is the government's job to enforce morality or to enforce the law?

Should the government forbid businesses to conduct business on the Sabbath? Forbid its citizens to eat meat on Friday? Dictate dress codes?

Do you claim to be for limited government?

[annalex]

There are many systems of government that maintain universal moral code and leaving moral disputes to the religious authority and the independent juduciary. The American Republic till about 1973 was one example of such system. There were others.

The specific questions that you ask, about holidays, etc. are not a matter of moral law. Abortion, euthanasia, medical experimentation on humans, gay “marriage”, no fault divorce are moral issues that modern democratic governments often decide wrongly. Abortion, for example, is legal in the United States. When the political system allows for laws that violate universal justice, that political system becomes illegitimate, regardless of its popularity.

[allmendream]

You think our Constitutional republic should submit to religious authority. No doubt the authority of your own religion and not any other?

There could be no system more anathema to our founding fathers than that.

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.”
— James Madison, June 20, 1785

[annalex]

I think that by its consitution the US renders itself illegitimate when it passes laws that are morally abhorrent, regardless of anything else. I cited specific examples of such laws.

The Republic founded by the Fathers left moral issues to the discretion of individuals and local courts.

[allmendream]

I think any government that submits itself to “religious authority”, as you suggest, is an illegitimate abomination that is tyrannical to the freedom of conscience of its subjects. And subjects they would be, not free citizens, but subjects.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Bolton's anti-Catholic crack on Fox News' Glenn Beck today:
"When I was in Baltimore City public schools we had fish on Friday for the Catholics - that was probably unconstitutional." The establishment clause on religion in the U.S. Constitution refers to CONGRESS passing a law. Serving fish in a cafeteria is not a LAW or an "ESTABLISHMENT" and wasn't passed by CONGRESS. Duh... So much for secular NEA public schools.

Better go back to McDonogh and retool the Constitution section in U.S. history.

[annalex]

That is liberal anti-religious pap.

In the US, for example, the citizens are free to exercise their religion and should therefore be free from the tyranny of the democratic process which imposes moral decisions on them contrary to the authority of their faith, that is, contrary to the true, religious authority. You earlier indicated a desire for limited government, but evidently you have no interest in limiting the government in any meaningful way.

It is unfortunate that the experiment with the constitutional republic has failed. The reason it failed is the systematic secularization of what once was a well-functioning Christian society.

[allmendream]

Subjecting our government to a religious authority is theological anti-Republic crap.

Free from the tyranny of the democratic process that imposes moral decisions on them?

OMG! DECISIONS!!! How right you are that ignorant serfs should be kept from making decisions and freed from that evil democratic process! They should just subject themselves to your favorite religious authority and all will be well. None of those messy ‘decisions’ and the ‘tyranny’ of deciding for yourself, no more elections! All things will be dictated for you by religious authority, which as we all know are absolutely free from corruption or vice and would never ever be tyrannical! No more silly elections where the ignorant people get to chose, no we should all gladly submit the the ultimate authority of a religious hierarchy! /s

There is nothing liberal or anti-religious about wanting to maintain our secular governance the way our founders envisioned; nor is one who thinks that governments authority should be subjected to a religious authority a champion of limited government. The government you envision would not only attempt to exercise absolute control of your material being, but also your soul.

[annalex]

All that supposed secularism worked when the country was more or less uniformly Christian. It doesn’t any longer, and we are not free as a result.

[big'ol_freeper]

all Protestants are Liberals

Indeed the movement springs from self-righteous whining about me, me, me. Excellent observation.

[allmendream]

It was not “supposed” it was actual. Our founders envisioned and put into place a government that would exercise only secular authority.

I am free. Not sure about you, you seemed chained to your own delusions about the prefereability of living in chains to a religious authority that controls your material being as well as your immortal soul.

And you think this is “limited” government? That religious authority is preferable to the “tyranny” of having to make your own decisions? And do you not foresee that perhaps, just maybe, religious authorities could be corrupted?

And what then? No more elections to throw the bums out. We have to live with them ruling us or make war upon them. And you think this system would be preferable?

Laughable naive.

[RFEngineer]

“I never forget the simple truth: all Protestants are Liberals.”

Ironic that on a thread complaining about Anti-Catholicism, you make such a caustic statement.

Do you care to retract it or apologize?

[RFEngineer]

“Indeed the movement springs from self-righteous whining about me, me, me. Excellent observation. “

You wouldn’t understand Protestantism if someone nailed it to your front door.

[big'ol_freeper]

If they tried to nail that satanic garbage on my front door they’d get a load of buckshot between the eyes.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Ironic that on a thread complaining about Anti-Catholicism, you make such a caustic statement.”

The comment was neither ironic nor caustic.

“Do you care to retract it or apologize?”

No, since there is no reason to retract or apologize. I see no reason for being accurate and truthful:

http://www.liberalismisasin.com/

[RFEngineer]

“My statement was not incorrect in the least and you deserve exactly no change of statement.”

Ok vlad, if you want to make a provocative claim, how about this one?

Conservatives work hard. Hard work is sometimes referred to as a “Protestant work ethic”. Since there is no such thing as a “Catholic work ethic”, I therefore infer that Catholics don’t work hard and must be liberals.

Now retract your statement Protestants being liberals. It’s a dumb thing to say, you shouldn’t have said it.