Is it fair to say that in your, what, vision of the ecclesial community the Holy Spirit often gives rich and wonderful and obvious manifestations of his work and presence?
If that's right, then "prophecy" is one of those gifts.
If a Martian (okay, no alien jokes) sociologist were to observe this in a sort of clinical way he would describe this prophetic activity as a kind of ecstatic utterance (maybe?) but "in a language understanded of the people", and, in a way, "oracular" in the sense of being FIRST, not really chosen by the speaker and THEN vague or, treading carefully here, lacking in concreteness at least to those who are not members of the particular ecclesial community?
This utterance would however present itself as an accurate presentation of God's word, both with respect to future events and with respect to personal spiritual activities.
How am I doing so far?
Then, the underlying theology would include ideas that the utterance was in and for the local ecclesial community AND for those who (by the activity of the Holy Spirit hear in it the word of God. Therefore, since it is, in a way, irrelevant to those who are not members of the community, they are not competent to "judge" it because it really is discontinuous with their own particular personal life in Christ?
The reason I'm trying to get a handle on the POV is that I think that the abuse and hostility on both sides come from widely different opinions of what and how the Church is manifested in the life of communities and individuals. So each side seems preposterous, weird, and needlessly unfriendly to the other.
So I hoped to portray in a neutral way how things look from "your side."
How did I do?
Um, oh yeah:
GREAT JOB, MAD DAWG.
I THINK YOU ARE EXTREMELY ACCURATE in your description and analysis.
I don’t think that’s ALL that’s going on, however.
But it’s a huge, huge, huge factor.
and the assumptions flowing therefrom . . . and the emotions attached to those assumptions . . . goodness! More accurately, BADNESS!
Now to be somewhat fair . . . God . . .
as in BIG DADDY . . .
has periodically shown this tendency to cross lots of boundaries . . . between groups, across all groups . . . even to the secular world . . .
and somewhat take them to task as though they were part of the inner sanctum of THE CHOSEN. He hasn’t done it often but . . . there’s been a time or two, IIRC.
GOD CERTAINLY has demonstratec a tendency to jerk everyone up by their hair periodically and
say essentially
PAY ATTENTION—YUH BEEN SLACKEN AND IGNORING MY PRIORITIES AND I’VE HAD ENOUGH OF IT.
Very often, He has used the most UNHEARABLE spokespersons seemingly available to convey such messages.
I see it as kind of a screening sort of gauntlet.
He makes some things easy and some things hard.
And the discerning WHO TRULY REALLY HAVE A HEART TO KNOW HIM AND PUT HIM FIRST
WILL ALWAYS FILTER THROUGH THE CHAFF FOR THE GOLD, THE TREAUSRE FROM THE THRONE.
All of the noise on these threads has essentially been about chaff. But such blood lust noise it’s been! Incredible.
God is not amused with that.
I think you are quite accurate that there is essentially a sub-cultures clash of major proportions on these threads.
But that doesn’t explain it away sufficiently, for me.
PEOPLE WHO TRULY PUT GOD FIRST AND WHO TRULY HAVE A HEART AFTER GOD WILL STILL BEHAVE WISELY, BIBLICALLY, LOVINGLY, FITTINGLY . . . IF NOTHING ELSE, IN A WAIT AND SEE GAMALIEL MODE.
Such contexts and events as these, stimili as these are tests. Everything is a test.
And many have been flunking—even subtracting out the very valid sub-cultures clash that you articulated so well.
There’s been one or two folks who’ve claimed to be in somewhat Charismatic symapathy with the modern operation of spiritual gifts not all that divergeant from the basic Biblical base that Jed operates out of
who have still railed at him
ALMOST as harshly as the others.
My take on that is . . . their flesh driven criteria has been only slightly better than the flesh driven criteria of the sub-cultures so foreign to Jeff’s.
It’s fascinating, MD,
There’s a well known FREEPER RC
WHO’S A PROPHETIC TYPE.
I think of him as a prophet. I don’t know if he does. He may ‘just’ think he has the gift of prophecy.
I think he’s quite anointed and quite accurate.
He’s sent a very extensive and sobering prophecy to several national Christian leaders who’ve all affirmed it as accurate, including the 700 club.
And, he’s just sent another recent dream/vision re OThuga around and had that affirmed, IIRC, as well.
I hesitate to say the following because I don’t recall precisely enough . . . however, IIRC,
he won’t share such things with FR because of what we have seen on these threads—primarily from his fellow Roman Catholics . . .
BTW, who, as a Roman Catholic, HE DOES SEE many RC’s hereon as having an idolatrous relationship and attitude toward Mary, Saints, etc. and the INSITUTION in far too many cases.
So, it’s an interesting . . . slicing across sub-cultures in some respects.
THANK YOU Dawg, for an attempt at understanding.
Is it fair to say that in your, what, vision of the ecclesial community the Holy Spirit often gives rich and wonderful and obvious manifestations of his work and presence?
YES. Emphatically so.
If that's right, then "prophecy" is one of those gifts.
Without a doubt.
[...] would describe this prophetic activity as a kind of ecstatic utterance (maybe?) but "in a language understanded of the people", and, in a way, "oracular" in the sense of being FIRST, not really chosen by the speaker and THEN vague or, treading carefully here, lacking in concreteness at least to those who are not members of the particular ecclesial community?
Not necessarily on any of these points, IMHO, but generally, considering the nature of prophecy, a reasonable assertion.
This utterance would however present itself as an accurate presentation of God's word, both with respect to future events and with respect to personal spiritual activities.
Yes, but according to whom? There's the sticking point.
How am I doing so far?
A fair and equitable inquiry.
Then, the underlying theology would include ideas that the utterance was in and for the local ecclesial community AND for those who (by the activity of the Holy Spirit hear in it the word of God. Therefore, since it is, in a way, irrelevant to those who are not members of the community, they are not competent to "judge" it because it really is discontinuous with their own particular personal life in Christ?
My opinion on the matter is this:
IF one accepts the premise that the offices of the Church are all still in full effect, including apostles and prophets (which I do);
AND IF one believes the gifts of the Spirit to be as described, and as evidenced (which I do);
THEN: One is happy to be looking for works of the Spirit in one's life, and to a great degree, in the Church at large. Such works are confirming of the power of God in the lives of men, and confirming of the promise of Christ.
Those who believe see God's power in their lives ALL_THE_TIME. Great works of the Spirit are abundantly given to those who love the Lord, and who believe on Him - even as it was promised.
Those who are not looking, will not see, and for the most part, REFUSE to see. For such as these, the Spirit can do no works, and the Church has no power. Their minds seek after carnal things, so the carnal is what they find.