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To: annalex

FWIW - and I know you will disagree, and that is OK - I tried hard in the first phrase to get it IAW Catholic teaching. However, when someone believes this ‘multiple participation’ results in multiple forgiving of sins, and that it is a requirement for forgiveness of sin as one goes through life, I think the Catholic Church in fact, if not in word, considers them multiple sacrifices. At a bare minimum, the Catholic Church teaches that God views the sacrifice of Jesus as an ongoing sacrifice, always before Him (since He is supposed to be outside of time, and seeing all times at once).

However, there is no place in scripture where it is described thus. Even when speaking from the perspective of God in Heaven, it is always ‘the Lamb that WAS slain’. Or it says ‘AFTER his sacrifice, he sat down at the right hand of God and waits...’ - indicating that either God’s nature involves a sequential perspective, or that God has completely shut up the sacrifice of Christ and refuses to look at it.

In practice, Catholics treat it as a repeated sacrifice. There are Vatican approved books talking about a repeated sacrifice, offered again and again - which I think more accurately reflects what the Catholic Church believes. I find the whole ‘re-presentation’ argument disingenuous.

That is why I sometimes speak of it two different ways. One is what the Catholic Church - which has had Hebrews stuffed in its face many times - SAYS. The other is what I believe the Catholic Church PRACTICES.

And even when one uses the first phrasing, I think it doesn’t appreciate what Jesus did at the cross. When it says he has made us perfect forever, that means he has forgiven our sins - if we have truly believed, and are born again as a new creation. If the ‘re-presentation’ is for remembrance and thanksgiving, as Eucharist suggests, then it is fine. If it is for atonement, then it misses what Jesus has done.


264 posted on 11/16/2009 6:54:01 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
multiple forgiving of sins

Because there are multiple sins. That does not multiply Calvary. The Mass applies the one historical sacrifice to the faithful. When the Eucharist is consecrated, the language is both in the past tense and in the present tense, and it is straight from the scripture:

Priest: ...On the night he was betrayed, he took the bread and gave youthanks and praise. He broke the bread gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take this all of you and eat it; this is my body which will be given up for you.” ...When supper was ended, he took the cup; again he gave you thanksand praise; gave the cup to his disciples and said, “Take this, all of you, anddrink from it; this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlastingcovenant. Do this in memory of me.

Priest: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.

Everyone: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Priest: Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, allglory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever.

Everyone: Amen.

Priest: Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us.

Everyone: Our Father...

Priest: Deliver us Lord from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.

Priest: The peace of the Lord be with you always.Everyone: And also with you.

Priest: Let us offer each other a sign of peace.

Priest: This is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.Happy are those who are called to his supper.

Everyone: Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word andI shall be healed.

Further, the Mass is a celebration of sacrifice and through it the victory of Christ. It does not itself absolve any sin, at least not any serious sin, for that a separate sacrament exists, Confession.

265 posted on 11/16/2009 7:12:26 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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