Posted on 10/25/2009 9:52:48 AM PDT by narses
“My faith and hope remains in God’s one and only Son. “
As do all of His adopted brothers.
“Not in some hierarchical framework of authority.”
What a shame, He comes and gives us a visible Church and visible Sacraments and you refuse to see them. How sad.
I can't speak to what Orthodox hierarchs believe about what Rome teaches, but Rome herself seems crystal clear:
This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
For those who know (= believe) that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and intended to be necessary for salvation, non-membership is not an option.
All others we submit to the mercy of God.
“His condemnation was bogus.”
Apparently the bishops and archbishops who condemned him didn’t think so. I have to tell you, C, what Unam Sanctam says sure looks like heresy. That said, I don;t doubt the condemnation was any less a political put up job than Unam Sanctam itself.
“However, Unam Sanctam needs to be understood in its historical context:”
Can we look at the IC and the declarations of Vatican I the same way? :)
“Do you disagree with the book of Romans?”
If the Letter to the Romans teaches that willful rejection of the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church means damnation, I certainly do, but I must say that I have never heard such a novel interpretation of +Paul’s letter. I look forward to your thinking.
BTW, Mass on Sunday afternoon?
“Many are called, few are chosen.”
No Salvation Outside the Church
What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
Christian, I Presume? (Salvation) [Ecumenical]
Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]
Who Can Be Saved?
Grace, Faith, and Works
Getting in Touch With Reality (good character and behavior as a ticket to Heaven)
My Personal Savior
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)
Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)
The Experience of the Salvation of Christ Today
Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope
Worthy Is the Lamb?
Limbo and the Hope of Salvation
The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
All Christians are members of the catholic church - being a subject of Rome is unnecessary and irrelevant.
Narses, I love your pro-life work here on FR.
I hope you’ll keep me on your pro-life ping list and I hope that you will allow me to have this post remain on this thread, since you invited me with a ping, and your original post hits one of the reasons I’m not Catholic.
I hope you know that I have posted on other threads in an effort to calm our rhetoric in an effort to show that we Christians are one in the love of our God and our belief in Jesus Christ. I have a very low tolerance for the restrictions on the caucus threads. These appear to me to be “nah-naah, you can’t touch me!” threads.
I do not accept that any man or woman other than Jesus Christ himself has ever been infallible. There cannot be a reliance on a Pope.
The New Testament — whichever versions or translations you accept — tell us of the strong disputes between Peter and the rest of the church at Jerusalem, between Peter and Paul, (between Paul, Peter, and just about all of the people they worked with, at one time) and between the followers of the different apostles and those who followed them. Peter actually denied Christ during His trial. Acts 15 tells us that the council in Jerusalem directed Peter to admonish us not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but Paul contradicted this commandment in Romans.
My strongest argument against the necessity of belonging to the Roman Catholic Church is my belief that I am saved the same way that Abraham was saved before there was a Roman Catholic Church: by the fact that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. The Lord provided the sacrifice in place of my sins, just as He did to protect Isaac and his father.
Olympic-quality back-stroking ping
What, you never heard of evening mass on saturday and sunday?
You should get out more.
As for my reasoning with regard to the book of romans: Paul tells us in chapter 1 the inference to God’s existence from the witness of creation is so simple and obvious that no man is exempt from the responsibilities that knowledge demands. Please note this implies even thorough indoctrination in evolutionary theory, no matter how popular or pervasive, can provide legitimate defense from the standard all men have always been held to in the judgement of The Almighty.
Now if we take this as the standard God expects of us (i.e. reject a really reasonable sounding “alternative” explaination for how everything got here), and further note Jude’s admonition against the apostasy of Korah MUST be referring to an analogous authority in the Church or the warning is a complete tautology, who better than the heir to Peter better fits the type Jude is using?
“...who better than the heir to Peter better fits the type Jude is using?”
I’d say, based on geography, either the Patriarch of Alexandria or the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
“What, you never heard of evening mass on saturday and sunday?”
I knew about Saturday masses “counting” (though if they are before 6:00 PM I don’t understand how or why), but I can’t say as I have heard of Sunday evening Masses.
John 6:53
And your reasoning for a 'basis in geography,' other than simple petulance, is...?
“And your reasoning for a ‘basis in geography,’ other than simple petulance, is...? “
Sinai is about midway between Alex and Jerusalem, and a Patriarch is entitled to the presvyia in his own canonical jurisdiction.
That doesn't explain *why* you believe that detail is anything but incidental.
Really?
James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus ( Matthew 10:3)But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord (Galatians 1:19)
James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship: that we should go unto the Gentiles (Galatians 2:9; compare Acts 15)
“That doesn’t explain *why* you believe that detail is anything but incidental.”
Do you know what presvyia means? That word explains why.
Can. 202 §1. In law, a day is understood as a period consisting of 24 continuous hours and begins at midnight unless other provision is expressly made ...Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
In other words, Sunday evening is still Sunday, and the Saturday evening Mass satisfies the obligation not because it is Sunday aready in the Jewish sense, but because the canon explicitly allows it.
“In other words, Sunday evening is still Sunday, and the Saturday evening Mass satisfies the obligation not because it is Sunday aready in the Jewish sense, but because the canon explicitly allows it.”
Ah, well I see. We operate on a liturgical day, which begins at sundown so a Sunday evening Liturgy could never be a Sunday Liturgy, but it could be a Monday Liturgy.
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