Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?

Inside Catholic ^ | October 24, 2009 | Mark Shea

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[Poe White Trash]

This is one of those arguments where everybody needs to take notes and agree on vocabulary.

Truer words are rarely spoken. Unfortunately, actually DOING this is hard work!

Catholicism is messy, like most organic things. It's not a crisp, clear, legalistic phenomenon with a lot of bright lines and a handbook which is in every instance applicable.

No disagreement from me here.

Similarly Constantine might even have thought of Himself as THE Big Enchilada, but the real enchiladas were more likely to say to each other "Bide your time," and, to him,"Yessir, that's very thoughtful of you, Sir, uh, Sir, would you mind putting down that legion? Or at least pointing it somewhere else?"

Disagreement here. I've read that at the First Council of Nicea, the delegate bishops who attended the initial audience with the Emperor were greeted with the sight of not just Constantine but more than a few soldiers with drawn swords. I gather he was a REAL and BIG enchilada. Perhaps that's why the "Eastern Orthodox" call him St Constantine.

[Cronos]

You appear to be purposefully slow, vacuous and dense, when the Great Xenu-Uri talks to you about cabbages and cast iron, you understand not. How schtoopid of thee :-P

[Cronos]

Do note a few things:

1. Pontifex Maximus is not one of the Official Titles of the Pope. Yes, he's called that, but the official title and Office died with Gratian.
2. The usage of the term Pontifex Maximus may have it's origins as greatest bridge (possibly signifying a person in charge of bridges over the sacred Tiber river in pre-Christian Rome), but it's meaning evolved over the centuries so that Pontifex means priest and Max is well, as it always was, "greatest", so signifying Head Priest. The meaning of the term now is Head Priest in Latin
3. Uriel's assertion that this was somehow inherited from the Babylonians is nonsensical. If the term originated with the Babylonians, it would, logically, have died out when the Babylonians were conquered by the Persians (Persians believed in the teaching of Zoroaster and the Shahenshah (Emperor) of Persia was not Head Priest, and there was no Head Priest among the Magi (Zoroastrian priests). If the term survived, it would have logically gone to a king/priest in Iraq or Syria or Iran, not to far-away Rome.

[Cronos]

SBC has Bible verses in church too. In fact, the pastor of the one I attend has been going through the Bible verse by verse for years. Why do you think that only Catholics do that?

Beg your pardon, MamaB, but I didn't see anything in narses' 407 post that indicated that only Catholics do that. I just saw the post as saying that we Catholics DO read the Bible and have verses read or sung in Church, it didn't say that those outside The Church didn't say it. I'm glad that the SBC too reads Biblical verses, good on them, they are generally good people (I'll give you your Bill Blinton for our Pancy Pelosi :)

[Cronos]

he didn’t mean demons, he meant daemons. have you ever noticed that Xenu is like that old “Elisa” program, just repeating things ad nauseum and never answering your question with anything but repeated vague statements? Perhaps Xenu-Uri is just a computer bug planted on FR? *do-do-doo-doo...*

[Cronos]

Right. Once again, please note that I'm arguing that in the context of the 4th century Mediterranean basin, there was no Pope of the Catholic Church, certainly not in the sense we would say today that "BXVI is called the Pope of the Catholic Church." However, there WAS a Pontifex Maximus of the Roman State.

In the fourth century, there was a Pope (or more correctly, Patriarch) of the Western Church, Bishop of Rome and in charge of what is now the UK, France, Portugal, Spain, Andorra, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, San Marino, Morocco, algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Croatia, Albania, Hungary, parts of Romania etc. He was and IS the first among the 4 original bishoprics (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Rome), which has since been expanded to include Constantinople etc.

Anyway, so what we now have as the office of the Pope of the Catholic Church namely the shepherd given the duty of looking aftern the Western Church IS still there and was there in the 3rd century and before.

[Cronos]

Sigh... Petronski, Petronski, when will you learn that you should not attack a person whose beliefs are to attack The Church? it’s a belief system you know, that says “The Church is wrong, attack it and condemn it” and if you say that is wrong, then you are attacking that person’s belief system. bad...

[Cronos]

From what I understand, there is no Greek Orthodox RULE about divorce, and that while you state that marriage is an indissoluble union, there is not firm rule against divorce. Is that correct? Using the term “practise” is quite correct as there is no clear formulation for or against. Or am I wrong?

[Kolokotronis]

“From what I understand, there is no Greek Orthodox RULE about divorce, and that while you state that marriage is an indissoluble union, there is not firm rule against divorce.”

There is a rule against divorce, but The Church, since at the latest the 7th century, probably a good deal earlier, has granted in certain circumstances a ecclesiastical divorce and allowed remarriage by economia. Second mariages are essentially penitential rites and third marriages are positively funereal. The reasoning is that it is better for people to repent and remarry than to “live in sin”.

BTW, only three marriages, no matter how they end. After that its off to the monastery!

[Cronos]

The reasoning is that it is better for people to repent and remarry than to “live in sin”.

So, would it be fair to say that the EO use shame to keep divorce low? And I mean that in a positive way -- shame is good at times :)

[wagglebee]

The Mayans were really Jews who came floating on a giant lily-pad to Mexico in the 2nd century BC, bringing the OT and NT to the native Lamech.

Ah, kind of like the Mormons.

[Mad Dawg]

If I were a fresh Christian, and I'd read some of St. Athansius's polemic, I would martial a guard with submachine guns! And Athanaius was one of the good guys!

But I was trying to say that the holy < koff koff > bishops at Nicea couldn't fail to notice the drawn swords, but that probably (my guess) didn't lead them to think that he was the spiritual head of the Church. That's what I was trying to convey. So Constantine was "REAL" and "BIG" in an earthly sense, but, well, I'm not thinking that the bishops were too interested in his theological opinions, though they might have been ever so polite.

Hey! The D00d made Christianity legal! Let's give him SOME props ...

Mind you, legalization was probably the third great crisis and challenge for the Church, one with which we're still struggling.

[Mad Dawg]

Hey! My feelings are hurt!

It's like the Indians in Stan Freeburg's "Untied States of America." The chief says to Columbus,"You not discover us; WE discover YOU!"

You not excommunicate and anathematize us; WE excommunicate etc. YOU! So there, Nyah."

Okay. I'm embarrassed. This is embarrassing.

[Mad Dawg]

Oh. Like. omygawd.

I'm SEW confused, you chattering chasuble you.

Don't make me lug the comfy chair up there ...

[Kolokotronis]

I thought you wanted to know what the Synodikon of Orthodoxy is so I gave you a couple of snips. And what do I get for my kind gesture? Sarcasm, scorn! sigh.......

[trisham]

when will you learn that you should not attack a person whose beliefs are to attack The Church? it’s a belief system you know, that says “The Church is wrong, attack it and condemn it” and if you say that is wrong, then you are attacking that person’s belief system. bad...

*****************

Unfortunately, while amusingly stated, for some the above is also all too true.