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To: Mr Rogers; Claud
Real presence? I see no indication it was widely taught or even thought about by church fathers. And why believe a church father writing in 350 AD over the words of Christ, or the Apostles?

You mean like the words of John 6 and 1st Corinthians 11?

The reality is that NOBODY even questioned the Real Presence until Calvin came along.

80 posted on 08/31/2009 7:23:00 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Wrong.

John 6 wasn’t about the Eucharist - which wasn’t instituted until much later - nor would any plain reading of the chapter indicate transubstantiation. Those who turned away in John 6 were not denying transubstantiation, but the need to approach God via Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 11? You mean:

“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”

Compare that to the 1689 Baptist Confession:

“The outward elements in this ordinance, when correctly set apart for the use ordained by Christ, bear such a strong relation to the Lord crucified, that they are sometimes truly, but figuratively, called by the name of the things they represent, namely, the body and blood of Christ. ] However, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before...Worthy recipients, when outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly by faith, truly and in fact, not as flesh and body but spiritually. In so doing they feed upon Christ crucified, and receive all the benefits of his death. The body and blood of Christ are not present physically, but spiritually by the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements themselves are to their outward senses. All ignorant and ungodly people who are unfit to enjoy fellowship with Christ, are equally unworthy of the Lord’s table, and cannot, without great sin against him, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted to them while they remain as they are. Indeed, whoever participates unworthily is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment on themselves.”

So...does real presence mean spiritually, or physically? You’ll find many church fathers supporting the former, as well as the latter. But since they were men, and their words were not ‘God-breathed’, why not just pay attention to the Gospels and Epistles?


87 posted on 08/31/2009 7:42:44 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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