Posted on 08/29/2009 8:14:40 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Members of the Aetherius Society from as far afield as Australia and Ghana joined the pilgrimage to the Old Man of Coniston.
They believe the mountain is one of 19 across the world which have been “charged” with spiritual energy by extra-terrestrials from Venus and Mars.
Members of the society say their founder, George King, was able to contact religious figure heads – including Jesus, Buddha and Krishna – who they believe to be aliens. He transmitted the energy from their messages of peace to the mountains in the 1950s.
Society member David Trimble, 70, who was among those who joined the trek, hailed the event as a great success, in spite of difficult weather conditions.
He said: “It was absolutely fantastic. We divided into three prayer teams – one at the bottom, one two thirds of the way up and one right at the top. We prayed for world peace and sent energy out to all the trouble spots of the world including Iraq, Iran and the Sudan.”
According to society members, the 2,635ft Old Man was “charged” by Dr King in December 1958. Since then, it has been a place of biannual pilgrimage for society members, who hope to use the energy to alleviate world suffering.
Mr Trimble, who recently moved from Dalston to Barnsley, added: “These alien beings are trying to help mankind and, in terms of the mountains, we can generate an enormous amount of power. We’ve literally been able to move mountains and stop wars.”
The pilgrimage was led by Mervyn Smith, a former Coniston resident who now lives in London and has climbed the fell more than 500 times before.
At the same time, similar meetings were held at other “charged” mountains around the world.
Not wishing to be side-tracked, I made it clear I would respond after you answered the questions on the table that started this discussion. My requests/explanations can be viewed here, here, and here.
As I wrote at one point when you began speculating about the “two witnesses”:
“Here’s an interesting exercise, rather than involve my friend whom I have not see for 30 years, why don’t you explain what the witnesses are using just the Bible.” (See here)
I’ll be here when you are ready.
Here again you express a life of fear that members of the Roman Catholic Organization are not doing the tasks God requires lest He damn them. It actually breaks my heart to hear this.
Christians beg God to have them do something for Him and jump at the chance to be able to do so. It fills them with great joy. They know it is not required but will store up treasures in heaven for them. I think members of the RCO might have been among those with the most treasures in heaven, but only if they did their works because they were filled with joy that God would enable them to do so instead of believing that these works are required for salvation. Now they are trapped in doing the works out of coercion and believing they will be judged on them. This leads to them thinking their works are something more than just filthy rags and brings them in danger of boasting to God about them.
I also understand that since the RCO only accepts Christ’s words in the Bible as God Breathed and the rest of the Book as disposable words of sin filled fallen men instead of men Inspired by God to write exactly what He wanted them too, that they would not see God’s message to them. Instead they see only a tiny part and it lead them into a cult of personality around Peter since Christ supposedly talked to him more than anybody else in what was recorded in the Bible.
I also understand that all the years the Roman Catholic Organization could have been teaching people to read and translating the Bible to local languages, they instead kept the Bible out of the hands of their fellow sin filled fallen men and told them instead to believe only what the RCO believed about it. It is no surprise that the RCO then made itself out to be the only true church, the replacement of Christ, the only place you can get forgiveness from, the place where you have to devote all of your time and money so as to be sure you are doing all the works you need to do to be saved, the place that can have you damned to Hell by claiming you are no longer in the Body of Christ, and a place of torture and death for those they claim are not true members of the Body of Christ. It isn’t until now that I fully understood how much in error the RCO is and how much harm they have done throughout history to their fellow sin filled fallen men. It also isn’t until now that I realized how they did it. They did it by first hiding the Bible, and then later by claiming that their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one even though it only considers the Words spoken by Christ to be God Breathed and consider the rest to be expendable.
I also understand that the RCO does not get that the four Gospels are slightly different not because the Holy Spirit messed up, not because God was not powerful enough to make sure all the things He wanted to be written down were worded exactly as He willed, but because they are signposts to the complex layers of stories interaveled throughout the Bible. An RCO member could never understand a non member’s Scriptural argument about anything in the Bible because they don’t consider all of it God’s intentional Words. The Gospels are telling different sides to the story to different peoples (Jew/Gentile) and are mirroring different stories that happen in the Bible. They are not in error. It is the sin filled human mind that cannot see that they can be completely truthful accounts of what happened even if they seem to contradict themselves. God does not contradict Himself and His Word does not contradict Him, therefore it is our understanding that is wrong if that is how we see it. We must look deeper into what the Word is saying until we can see that they don’t contradict, then we know we are at the Truth.
Since the RCO quotes catechisms as if they are the Word of God and sees the Word of God as not God Breathed, then they are backwards in their interpretations of any part of Scripture. Catechisms are the words of sin filled fallen men who are no different than any other man. The Word of God is God Breathed and infallible in it’s entirety. The RCO is filled with Babylonian Mystery rituals because some sinner wrote a catechism that was then vaunted over Scripture since the RCO sees Scripture that is not Christ talking as nothing more than mere uninspired sin filled fallen men talk, and they see themselves as more than men because they were physically touched by someone that was physically touched by Peter ad infinitum. They call each other Holy while calling God’s Word uninspired. They even go so far as to say belief in God’s infallible Word is a hearsay, and disagreement with an organization of men means damnation. If Christians don’t have the Bible, then they have nothing, as sin filled men are sin filled men regardless if another sin filled man laid their hands on them. Satan would like nothing more than to take the one materal thing Christians have away from them. It seems that he uses the RCO to further this goal, just as he is using the sin filled fallen man that has stolen the titles from God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Holy Father, Head of the Church, Vicar of Christ) to further his one world government.
Christ is fully Man and fully God as I said. The only difference between Him and any other man is that he is sinless. There is no difference between Him and the Father. Christians will become His brother and His wife. Once you wrap your mind around that incredible news, you cannot stop yourself from saying BLESSED BE THE NAME, WORD, WILL, WAYS OF YAHWEH!!!
***People in the Roman Catholic Organization ***
What is the Roman Catholic Organization? If you do not answer that, then I cannot answer the question since I do not know who these people are and therefore I do not know what they fear or believe.
***Christians know they are saved and experience joy every time God decides to use them via the Holy Spirit to perform something for Him.***
How do Christians know that they are saved? How do they know that God uses them via the Holy Spirit (whatever that means) to perform things for Him?
***Members of the RCO do not believe the words of Matthew are God’s Words. ***
Who is the RCO?
Catholics, on the other hand believe that the words of Christ are the words of Christ.
***They see him as just a sin filled fallen man not at all Inspired through the Holy Spirit to write exactly what God wants him to.***
There is a difference between inspiration and transcription. Where does the NT say that it was transcripted? On the other hand, it says in several places that it was not.
***Since you only accept the words of Christ in the Bible to be God Breathed, and the rest of the Bible to be simply words of men that are no different than any other books, what would it matter to you what I said about the meaning of Scripture?***
Posting misunderstandings of Scripture in a religious forum will be challenged. Posting misunderstandings of (I think you mean) the Catholic Church in a religious forum will be challenged.
I never said that God didn’t breathe what we have as Scripture. It’s just that with the translations and copies and deliberate introductions of error, what we have now is not the intention of the Gospel writers exactly. The evidence is that there were multiple versions of each of the Gospels and one of each of the four was selected. Kosta has posted numerous times evidence of changes over the centuries. God may have breathed, but what we have now is translation, not transcription.
This article disagrees with you:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/greatschism.aspx
Both the Eastern and the Western Catholic Organizations consider themselves to be the “one” “true” “church”.
Just concede. What I have given you is more than enough. You have absolutely no answer to who the two witnesses, etc. were in 70AD. And since you don’t you really have no argument.
If you honestly want to know, please see the line by line Scriptural analysis of the whole Book of Revelation here:
It fully answers that question as well as any other possible question you could have about Biblical prophesies (make sure to also read the rest of the site).
I'll concede that you cannot answer for yourself. It's clear that if you have to intepret the Bible without your friends like Mr. Koenig you have no responses.
Still looking for the rapture in the book of Revelation?
“What do you think he’s doing right now, playing pinball in the rec room?”
LOL. It’s been over 1000 years since He was Resurrected, so your interpretation of the 1000 year reign has been long over. As such, what do *you* think He is doing now?
“If and only if the Apocalypse is a linear narrative describing a seven year period immediately before the 2nd coming.”
Duh. It *is*. That’s why so many prophesies haven’t been fulfilled yet.
“I picked his because he did put his book up on his web site.”
I know, I was making a joke. I even said ‘just kidding’. I have no problem with him.
“You got some reading to do.”
You keep trying to find labels for my argument that Revelation is a book about unfulfilled prophecies. Then you try to find articles where people have denounced these labels based on things I’m not even talking about.
Why not forget about setting up these ridiculous straw man arguments and instead tell me who the two witnesses etc. were in 70AD. Doing that would actually be attempting to counter my argument instead of trying to hand wave it away with nonsense.
You argument is stating that because the “Catholic” “Church” says it is the “one” “true” “church”, than that makes it so. You even post as proof, Roman Catholic Organization doctrine!
Scripture says no such thing. Christ is the Head of the Body of Christ which is made up of all Christians. *Christ* is the Rock upon which His Church is founded (this would be obvious to the RCO if it didn’t consider the Bible uninspired). No one gets to the Father or to Salvation in any other way than through Him.
Also, something being old doesn’t mean it is right.
Duh. It *is*. That’s why so many prophesies haven’t been fulfilled yet.
Duh. It isn't.
“You got some reading to do.”You keep trying to find labels for my argument that Revelation is a book about unfulfilled prophecies. Then you try to find articles where people have denounced these labels based on things I’m not even talking about.
Even if you don't know or acknowledge the name, what you're describing and advocating is run of the mill pop dispensationalism.
Why not forget about setting up these ridiculous straw man arguments and instead tell me who the two witnesses etc. were in 70AD. Doing that would actually be attempting to counter my argument instead of trying to hand wave it away with nonsense.
My position does not require complete fulfillment of John's Apocalypse in 70 AD.
You have nothing.
You cannot even explain your own beliefs by saying who in 70AD where the two witnesses.
Like I said, I'm here when you are ready. I called your bluff, now let's see your cards.
Who is Don Koenig and why should he be believed? Until you can answer that for yourself by explaining what he is saying in your own words, there is no reason for us to waste our time.
On Rev. 11:
The two witnesses are two prophets who will prophesy in Jerusalem for exactly 1,260 days. These two witnesses are witnesses of the God of creation and His Messiah. The message they will give will be that Jesus is coming and to tell Israel and the world it is time to prepare to set up His kingdom on earth that He will rule from Jerusalem.If you read the text very carefully, you will see that none of what Mr. Koenig claims is the message of these “two witnesses” is found there. It is rank speculation of the part of the “commentator”. The bias of Mr. Koenig’s position, that Jesus will return to earth and set up a carnal kingdom in old Jerusalem, is absolutely false.
More?
The wording in the passages about the two witnesses makes it crystal clear that they are real persons.
The wording does not require any such interpretation, since the entire books is full of images and symbols. The “witnesses” are called “olive trees” and “lampstands”. Elsewhere we read of the churches being referred to as “lampstands”. These are not individuals, but corporate entities. Hint: read Zechariah 4 about olive trees and lampstands.
These are just two statements in two successive paragraphs. I could go on pointing out more awful Scripture twisting, but you get the point.
Are you prepared to defend this sort of shoddy interpretation?
The first scripture verse in Revelation states that the purpose of this book is to show his servants what must shortly come to pass. Those who say this book is not about real future events have not even understood the first verse of this book. If the book is to show His servants future events, then it is relevant to the servants and cannot be about a mystical war between good and evil (amillennial idealist theology on Revelation). [emph. mine]Did you get that? The author managed to make the first verse say the exact opposite of what it really says while not saying much of anything.
So I checked out that he had to say about similar language in Rev. 22:
The angel was sent to show His servants (the Church) the things that must shortly be done. This prophecy actually started with the seven churches of John s time. It continues to be all about the Church on earth until Jesus comes.Well, yes that true, but the “shortly come to pass” stuff doesn’t happen to the seven churches, it happens in the next 15 chapters of the book. And it doesn’t say “will begin to shortly some to pass” which is the way Mr. Koenig’s theology wants him to read it.
That’s about all Mr. Koenig has to say about these chronology statements in Revelation. I guess that about all a futurist can say without messing up his system.
(I wasn't going to do this but it's just too easy.)
***Here again you express a life of fear that members of the Roman Catholic Organization are not doing the tasks God requires lest He damn them. It actually breaks my heart to hear this.***
Who is this Roman Catholic Organization? I cannot answer your posts regarding your unsubstantiated claims against them until you tell me who they are.
***Christ is fully Man and fully God as I said.***
You did not say that. I take note of a repeated ploy of claiming quotes and allusions to things that you claim you said. FR does not allow the authors of posts to edit them. You said that Christ was mere man.
***The only difference between Him and any other man is that he is sinless.***
This heresy was addressed over 1600 years ago.
***There is no difference between Him and the Father. ***
This heresy was addressed over 1500 years ago.
***Christians will become His brother and His wife.***
Not sure when this was addressed but it is definitely not Christian.
***Once you wrap your mind around that incredible news, you cannot stop yourself from saying BLESSED BE THE NAME, WORD, WILL, WAYS OF YAHWEH!!!***
It is incredible. As in not believeable. No Christian believes it. Where did you pull this from? Do you have Scriptural proof?
***This article disagrees with you:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/greatschism.aspx
Both the Eastern and the Western Catholic Organizations consider themselves to be the “one” “true” “church”.***
Point the first: both Orthodox and Latin consider themselves to be part of the one true Church, with the other as the other part - the two lungs of the Church, the saying goes.
Point the second: the Jesuits and the Franciscans quarrelled as well. That does not make one of them Catholic and the other not.
***You argument is stating that because the “Catholic” “Church” says it is the “one” “true” “church”, than that makes it so. You even post as proof, Roman Catholic Organization doctrine!***
Untrue. I stated that Scripture and Church history agree that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. I don’t know about Roman Catholic Organization doctrine.
***Scripture says no such thing. Christ is the Head of the Body of Christ which is made up of all Christians. ***
Scripture affirms that Jesus is the Head of the Church. And the Catechism takes especial care to emphasize that. Your interpretation of Scripture and the Catechism is wrong.
****Christ* is the Rock upon which His Church is founded ***
Your version must be garbled. It plainly says that Christ himself founded the Church upon Peter, the small stone, who would serve as the rock. Jesus is the Cornerstone.
***(this would be obvious to the RCO if it didn’t consider the Bible uninspired). ***
I don’t know who the RCO is.
***No one gets to the Father or to Salvation in any other way than through Him.***
Of course.
***Also, something being old doesn’t mean it is right.***
Something being new, unScriptural and emotionally attractive to an individual with aims of personal Papacy does not make it right either
Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
This was the verse I was referring to when I communicated poorly earlier in this thread.
That’s always been an interesting verse, alright.
Thanks.
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