Posted on 08/29/2009 8:14:40 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Members of the Aetherius Society from as far afield as Australia and Ghana joined the pilgrimage to the Old Man of Coniston.
They believe the mountain is one of 19 across the world which have been “charged” with spiritual energy by extra-terrestrials from Venus and Mars.
Members of the society say their founder, George King, was able to contact religious figure heads – including Jesus, Buddha and Krishna – who they believe to be aliens. He transmitted the energy from their messages of peace to the mountains in the 1950s.
Society member David Trimble, 70, who was among those who joined the trek, hailed the event as a great success, in spite of difficult weather conditions.
He said: “It was absolutely fantastic. We divided into three prayer teams – one at the bottom, one two thirds of the way up and one right at the top. We prayed for world peace and sent energy out to all the trouble spots of the world including Iraq, Iran and the Sudan.”
According to society members, the 2,635ft Old Man was “charged” by Dr King in December 1958. Since then, it has been a place of biannual pilgrimage for society members, who hope to use the energy to alleviate world suffering.
Mr Trimble, who recently moved from Dalston to Barnsley, added: “These alien beings are trying to help mankind and, in terms of the mountains, we can generate an enormous amount of power. We’ve literally been able to move mountains and stop wars.”
The pilgrimage was led by Mervyn Smith, a former Coniston resident who now lives in London and has climbed the fell more than 500 times before.
At the same time, similar meetings were held at other “charged” mountains around the world.
Rhetoric, indeed. Guy has a real axe to grind, even if it is an inconsistent one:
Premillennialism teaches the right view of the relationship between Church and State, and keeps us from kingdom-on-earth dreams. What its critics deride as pre-mil pessimism is, in reality, reality, and it is they who are seduced by utopian dreams, which are not good things.Premillennialists are the preeminent kingdom-on-earth dreamers. They largely deny the present reality of the kingdom in favor of a future kingdom where Jesus is literally reigning on the earth in old Jerusalem surrounded by both resurrected and non-resurrected people offering sacrifices and old covenant worship forms. Truly a mix of carnal and spiritual.
“No. Today it is good for a laugh.”
Why recommend a book you have no respect for?
“Here’s an interesting exercise, rather than involve my friend whom I have not see for 30 years...”
He left you with a profound change in your understanding of the Bible.
“...why don’t you explain what the witnesses are using just the Bible.”
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the data I have regarding the two witnesses can be found here:
Revelation Chapter 11 Commentary by Don Koenig
http://tinyurl.com/l7nno5
It is rather long, but if you want me to post it to the thread let me know and I will.
“Then I will do the same.”
I am very interested in hearing the 70AD view of this.
“Since it was not an argument per se, there is no logical flaw. I was simply stating a fact.”
LOL Your opinion is not a fact. Stating it as one *is* and argument.
“Reformed, Presbyterian, NAPARC, Lutherans, LCMS, Methodists, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox”
Interesting. Thank you very much for this. I wonder though if what these churches are calling “dispensationalism” is the same thing as I what I have been arguing. I don’t think so, as their objections list things that I don’t believe either.
For example, not sure where Grace is being removed, so don’t know what Presbyterians are referring to. As for LCMS, don’t have any idea what they mean by saying the Book of Acts starts the New Covenant. I never thought about the Bible books as being separable in some kind of categories. Don’t know what they are talking about.
I am lead by your post to believe that what you are calling dispensationalism, what these churches are calling dispensationalism, and what my argument has been are two different things.
I have simply been arguing for Biblical prophesies not having been fulfilled in 70AD but still being pending.
Interesting, thanks. That explained a lot.
You said that you believe that Christ is currently reigning. Do you mean this in the God is Sovereign way or do you mean in the Book of Revelation way? What I mean is, in Revelation, Christ doesn’t reign until after the resurrection, so do you believe that has already occurred? It also says he reigns for 1000 years. So do you believe this 1000 years is happening now? A lot of prophesies in Revelation have to happen before that. Like Wormwood, the creatures that sting like scorpions, the mountain that crashes into the sea, the four horseman, the two witnesses, etc. Do you believe these have already happened? If so, when and how?
I understand your Church and Israel position as you explained it well with the ‘expansion’ principle. I believe you said that this means that Israel has no future place in prophesy. But here you said that the Church does not replace Israel. If so, when Israel is mentioned in Revelation, do you not say “Church” in your mind?
I am curious how the 1000 years before the return of Christ works. When do those years start and what identifies their beginning?
“Only a mild one, comparatively.”
...perhaps
“Two boundaries, at least, beyond which you cannot go are belief in the future return of Christ, and the resurrection of the body. Deny those (as full preterists do) and you aren’t an orthodox Christian.”
OK good. Yeah, it’s one thing to talk theology, it’s another thing entirely to not be Christian. BTW, what are preterists?
The only thing at stake here is the possible missing of the Rapture or having an even more difficult time coping with the Tribulation and lead up years.
“That sounds like the rhetorical games certain others play.”
Only stating a fact.
“Who is Don Koenig and why should I read him instead of the folks that I read?”
For edification and the purpose of argument. Same reason I read any of the stuff you suggest to me.
“Which is, to my point of view, the gymnastics he has to go through to make it work.”
It works without contortions. In my view, you have to throw out almost all of the Book of Revelation to make the 70AD thing possible.
“The woman can’t... have anything to do with the church...”
I don’t see that he is saying that at all. For the purpose of that prophesy he has identified Israel as the subject. Similarly, “Lord” doesn’t always mean Christ, doesn’t always mean God, doesn’t always mean one or the other.
Or to put it another way, just because a passage mentions only the original branches, it doesn’t mean it is denying the existence of the rest of the tree.
“BTW, Dr. Vern Poythress...”
Who is *he* and why should *I* read him instead of... Just kidding.
This is interesting, thanks for posting it. I will need time to look through it so I can’t offer much comment now. However, it appears from your excerpt that he believes the “vision” to not be a prophesy or even an event actually happening to John, but to instead be a dream message. Is this correct?
“Occam’s Razor.”
If you truly followed this you would use a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
“Get the other stuff right, and the eschatology will follow.”
Exactly the advice I am hoping you will follow.
“Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel...”
That’s nice, though I sense a “but” coming!
“...but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity.”
So God is still going to give what He promised to Israel? ..namely the land of Israel and the highest prosperity on Earth.. But He is going to do this by giving it to the Body of Christ? ..namely a group that as of right now does not contain even a fraction of the bloodline? If this is going to work without replacement, then the bloodline is going to have to go through a mass conversion to Christianity. This is actually prophesied in the Book of Revelation and it starts with a massive migration of the bloodline back to Israel... which is really happening now and has been in the news. These events are end times markers. And it is really all I have been saying. Israel is an end time marker. Remember the original comment I made that started the debate?
~Yahweh’s protection of America may be ending. Perhaps Obama has come against Israel in a meeting/event not yet public.~
“What an amazingly cold view of Christian charity.”
Not at all. The Holy Spirit does great works through all Christians and it is a HUGE blessing to be able to get to do a ton of them, as it will store up massive treasures in heaven.
The error is believing that these works are necessary, to add to Christ’s perfect Work. These works have nothing to do with being saved, they manifest in a person after they are filled with the Holy Spirit. It is actually one of the ways you can tell if a person is Christian, by their works.
The works must not be coursed or forced, they must be done out of genuine love and desire, or they are worthless.
They cannot be bragged or boasted about because to God, even the absolute best of them is like filthy rags.
Perhaps the reason for this is all the unintended consequences like I posted about, or perhaps even a dollop of pride or self interest invalidates them in His eyes.
If we are following Christ and becoming more like Him then works will naturally manifest, but they have nothing to do with becoming Christian in the first place or maintaining a saved state.
You can’t say because by saying the Western or Eastern Church is the “one” “true” “church” you are invalidating the other “one” “true” “church”.
“Then you do not know.”
What do you mean?
“With respect, I would say not. Your dismissal of Matthew is most telling.”
I do no such thing. I instead dismiss false interpretations of Matthew.
“There really isn’t much of one.”
I thought it was going well as you presented an argument instead of just dismissing mine. Now though it is just the “we are the one true church” mantra. Even so, getting to hear your previous argument had given me the insight I was looking for.
I just first want to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to post this to me. I have prayerfully sat with it to find as much as I can from it. Thank you very much for providing this information and insight.
“We are charged by God to make the best use of His gifts…Otherwise we will be thrown into the outer darkness.”
“After she has received God’s Grace, those works are what she will be Judged on.”
“Jesus does not say that one may sit on one’s backside and find salvation. He says that these will go off to eternal punishment.”
“I do not know what God has tasked any man to do.” “The Holy Spirit guides.”
“If people would listen to that quiet voice, then they would have at least a clue.”
“All I believe is that if one does not follow one’s tasks, then God will Judge us accordingly.”
“[If not for] serving your fellow man… what is your purpose here on earth?”
What I see here is that God gives you an unknown number of unknown tasks to do, and if you do not do them He will damn you, even though you are a Christian. To know if you have done all the tasks you are to do you listen to the Holy Spirit.
“...Peter was the first among equals of the Apostles.”
“Interesting, since Jesus is talking specifically to Peter and not the other Apostles.”
“The laying on of hands to choose the next office holders occurs throughout Acts and the Epistles.”
I can understand now where the Peter facination came from.
“...those who do not understand the Gospel of Christ are obviously not Christian.”
“It is only for the clergy who have been instructed.”
“The hubris of personal interpretation gets in the way of serving God.”
What I see here is that agreeing with the clergy, who have been instructed by previous clergy, is required by God or He will damn you.
“If you claim that God dictated the Bible, then the Bible itself calls you wrong. Luke and Revelation are most explicit. The letters from the bishops to their flocks are also not God-breathed. They are letters from men to men.”
What I see here is that the Words of Christ are the only God-breathed part of the Bible. Everything else is uninspired.
“Do you think of Jesus as a mere man?”
Christ is a mere man, and He is also God.
I forgot to ping you to 924 on this
“The key is to read Revelation as it was intended, i.e., as a series of symbols taken largely from the OT to explain to the early Church the things that were about to happen to the unbelieving Jews in and around Jerusalem.”
OK, but what is the meaning of Wormwood, and the mountain falling into the sea, and the two witnesses using that context? What actually happened to them that can be said to correlate with these images.
“China does not have 200 million soldiers with 200 million horses. In fact there are only about 70 million horses in the entire world!!”
This is interesting. I imagine that if on the news we hear about a huge horse breeding program, then we can take it as an end times marker.
I didn’t.
He left you with a profound change in your understanding of the Bible.
Not exactly. He actually brought me to the Bible. I must admit that I was not really relying on the Bible prior to that for my understanding of these things. It is easy to be confused by human traditions, esp. those that were being developed by popular futurists of the day.
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the data I have regarding the two witnesses can be found here:
So, IOW, you haven’t done the work yourself. Mr. Koenig is not here to defend his errant views. Are you prepared to do that? If so, give us the summary and solid Scriptural support.
It is rather long, but if you want me to post it to the thread let me know and I will.
I would rather here your views and interact with them. Set aside Mr. Koenig for a while and just try using the Bible. That what my friend taught me.
Obviously you do not know the difference between facts, opinions, and arguments based on such. Are you challenging the truth of the things I have stated about myself? On what basis? If I say, “I enjoy jazz music,” is that fact or opinion? If is say, “Dizzy Gillespie is the greatest jazz trumpeter of all time,” is that fact or opinion? Can you tell the difference between the two statements?
I don’t think so, as their objections list things that I don’t believe either.
Then obviously you need to be careful identifying yourself with this label.
I have simply been arguing for Biblical prophesies not having been fulfilled in 70AD but still being pending.
True, the question is, “which ones?”
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for you to use the Bible and answer the question for yourself, without the help of Mr. Koenig or anyone else.
[Which, BTW, I’m still waiting for you to do with the matter of proving that modern Israel is the fulfillment of specific biblical prophecies. You seem to now be avoiding the issue.]
This is interesting. I imagine that if on the news we hear about a huge horse breeding program, then we can take it as an end times marker.
If you do it is just further confirmation that you just don’t get it.
That seems to be a claim that I’m failing to grasp from the Bible. Can you be more specific?
You’re not allowed to say that here.
You made a claim about me that is groundlessly ludicrously false. You’re not allowed to do that here.
“Why not call it the Catholic Church?”
Some people say that “Catholic” means “Universal” which alludes to Christ saying that He came “for all”. So when some people say the phrase “Catholic Church” they are saying “the Body of Christ” or “Christians”.
I don’t accept your premise that what you call the “Catholic Church” is what Christ called the Body of Christ. It is certainly not the “one true Church”.
It’s like saying the Church of Scientology is the one true Christian church because it has the word “church” in it. Then going through the Bible and every time you see a reference to “the Church” you say that the Word is talking about Scientology.
I also don’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture that Christ “founded” an organization. You don’t enter the Body of Christ through the doors of a building handing out wafers, you enter through Christ.
Before I do this, I would like to see something from you that brings your side up to where I am. Namely, can you please post an article that gives a commentary on Revelation using the 70AD assertion? It doesn’t have to be long, and you can even write it yourself. It just has to address who the two witnesses are, what Wormwood was, what the mountain that fell into the sea was, what the stinging creatures where, etc. It is only fair as I have already done this on my end.
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