Posted on 08/29/2009 8:14:40 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Members of the Aetherius Society from as far afield as Australia and Ghana joined the pilgrimage to the Old Man of Coniston.
They believe the mountain is one of 19 across the world which have been charged with spiritual energy by extra-terrestrials from Venus and Mars.
Members of the society say their founder, George King, was able to contact religious figure heads including Jesus, Buddha and Krishna who they believe to be aliens. He transmitted the energy from their messages of peace to the mountains in the 1950s.
Society member David Trimble, 70, who was among those who joined the trek, hailed the event as a great success, in spite of difficult weather conditions.
He said: It was absolutely fantastic. We divided into three prayer teams one at the bottom, one two thirds of the way up and one right at the top. We prayed for world peace and sent energy out to all the trouble spots of the world including Iraq, Iran and the Sudan.
According to society members, the 2,635ft Old Man was charged by Dr King in December 1958. Since then, it has been a place of biannual pilgrimage for society members, who hope to use the energy to alleviate world suffering.
Mr Trimble, who recently moved from Dalston to Barnsley, added: These alien beings are trying to help mankind and, in terms of the mountains, we can generate an enormous amount of power. Weve literally been able to move mountains and stop wars.
The pilgrimage was led by Mervyn Smith, a former Coniston resident who now lives in London and has climbed the fell more than 500 times before.
At the same time, similar meetings were held at other charged mountains around the world.
That's what you are doing right now. Over and over.
What is this "it" by the way?
You plagiarized two different passages, one in 805 and the other in 811.
Outership;
Petronski has indicated that you may have some connection to CARM. Is that correct?
No, I merely pointed out that the two posts in question are plagiarism unless he is Matthew Slick.
Personally, I'd rather be called a plagiarist than be called Matthew Slick.
See post 313.
I posted a CARM document in 313. That’s all the connection I have.
Reread the thread.
See post 313
“What is the RCO?”
RCO is Roman Catholic Organization.
“The Reformation devalued the Gospels and drew from various heretical groups of the first millennium in several ways, most notably including the idea that Paul was the premiere and, sometimes the only, source of theology. It is that mindset that leads to the prism of the Gospels being viewed through Paul, rather than vice versa, which is not only non Christian (Paulian, rather), but also goes against Peter who cautions about Paul being easily misunderstood.”
I am not a member of the reformation, I am simply someone who has read the Bible and see that it doesn’t say what the RCO says it does.
***Petronski has indicated that you may have some connection to CARM.
No, I merely pointed out that the two posts in question are plagiarism unless he is Matthew Slick.***
Yes, I was in error on that. I did look up Matt Slick on CARM and came up with this page simply by chance: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/mass-and-sacrifice-christ.
In it, he attempts to refute the Eucharist. Fascinating to see; he does note two Gospel passages of the Eucharist (both Matthew). But in his refutation, he notes seven quotes from Paul, and one from 1 John (which is not very relevant to the argument). No Gospel quotes except to suppor the Catholic position. Very telling.
I must thank Outership for the notification of CARM. I wandered through the site going back some years and now that I think of it, have rarely failed to be amused by the sophomoric theology and thoroughly un Scriptural positions, while claiming a Biblical basis. Thank you for reminding me that individual men and their actions are as filthy rags before the Lord.
***What is the RCO?
RCO is Roman Catholic Organization.***
Okay, and what is that?
“Gods Judgment will be on those who have been accorded Grace and squandered it.”
“Eternal punishment for those who have received the Gospel and done nothing (or evil) with it.”
What would or would not need to be done for God to say that a person squandered His Grace? On our best day, our best works are like filthy rags to Him. If we are depending on our works to complete Christ’s Work then aren’t all of us dammed?
“Grace is required; it is not enough according to Jesus since Grace alone is one sided.”
“If Grace alone is sufficient, then men are only robot slaves or irresponsible infants and that is not how Jesus treated the people that He interacted with.”
For Grace to be given, a person has to accept Christ so it isn’t once sided. We are then tasked with being repentant to the very utmost of our ability. A palpable change would have taken place in us that can be seen by others as “works”. This isn’t like charity works, it is that others can see the work of the Holy Spirit in us.
“Jesus is Judging him based upon his lack of works after he has been given talents...”
So you are saying that works, in addition to Grace, are required. But what exact works? Which works are not seen as filthy rags to Him?
“Jesus understood that He was creating a Church of irresponsible men, yet the Church was a perfect Creation (since He created it). Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom; Jesus nominated Peter as the steward on earth until He returns.”
I never understood how the Roman Catholic Organization can read the “keys” passage and get this from it. I can agree that Christ knew the Body of Christ would be filled with fallen men, as that is all there are (apart from Him). I can agree that the Body of Christ is a perfect creation, if you add in “perfect in Christ” as we certainly will be after the resurrection when we get our glorified bodies. There is nothing in the passage, however, that says the Body of Christ is the Roman Catholic Organization, that Peter is the first Pope, or that he is to be Christ’s steward. None of that is in Scripture. It’s just tacked in there.
“It may not; we have no explicit instructions from Him that it does not. Therefore we cannot act as if it is.”
If you have no instructions that you have to go though all the RCO rituals, then why do you say you should just because Christ didn’t explicitly say you shouldn’t?
“How can one be a member in the Body of Christ if one does not believe in the Christ of the Bible and of the Church that He created?”
The “Church” He created *is* the Body of Christ. It isn’t the RCO. That’s just what they say. And they don’t even clarify which “Catholic” church is the only one. Is it the Eastern or the Western? Which side is not the ‘one true church’?
“Forgiveness of sins comes from Jesus and His appointed here on earth.”
Where in Scripture does it say Christ appoints sin filled fallen men on Earth for the purposes of forgiveness? Why would someone ask a fellow sinner for forgiveness when he can just pray to Christ? Also, some may NOT be asking Christ and thinking that asking a sinner will give them forgiveness. This will lead many AWAY from Christ.
“We were the ones who were there, recorded the fact of the resurrection, and developed the doctrine of the Trinity.
Who is ‘we’ here? Certainly you yourself weren’t there. The people who recorded events put their names on the Books they wrote. If you are saying ‘we’ as in we Christians then it still seems strange. The doctrine of the Trinity is plain to anybody that reads the Bible, it doesn’t really need to be developed.
“Christ Himself tells us through the Gospels that we are Judged upon our conduct.”
What does a Christian have to do, or not do, to pass this judgment?
“I am grateful that you are finding true Christianity handed down from our fathers for the last 2000 years rather than the concoctions of men occupying booths in taverns or huddled with other plotters in Geneva.”
I don’t understand what this means. Please clarify.
“If you mean the Catholic Church...”
As I am sure you already know, only the Roman Catholic Church sees the RCC as the “one true church”. The rest of us Christians see it as a massive theological error on their part to believe this. They try to use words like “catholic church” to make the quiet point that they are the only true church but wordplay of that type only fools themselves. The true church is the Body of Christ, and it is made up of all Christians. That is the one true church, not the RCC. Which “catholic” church is the “true one” anyway? The western or the eastern? They both say they are and the other one is not.
“...put away misunderstandings of Paul for a short time and concentrate on the Gospels...”
This is something I really wish RCO members would do.
“If you start with Paul and view the Gospels through them, then you will come up with far different viewpoints than if you start with the Gospels and view Paul and the NT through them, and the OT through the NT.”
If you can come up with a different Biblical interpretation depending on which Book you read first, then you are doing it wrong.
“I view the words of Jesus Christ far more than any man, even such as Peter and Paul. I suggest that any Christian should as well, otherwise one risks becoming a Paulian.”
If you pick and choose out of the Bible, then you are not listening to God’s words, as God inspired every single word coming out of anyone who is talking in the Bible.
***I am not a member of the reformation, I am simply someone who has read the Bible and see that it doesnt say what the RCO says it does.***
If you are not Catholic, then you are almost certainly Protestant and a child of the Reformation. Either of the Church or not.
Who is this RCO and what do they say?
Also, any reason youd take the Apocalypse as a simple linear narrative?It is written as one.
That gets the interpretive cart before the horse. And it runs into the difficulty of having, right in the middle, a description, in symbolic terms, of the coming of the Messiah and his ascension to heaven. Which ascension, BTW, begins the three and a half years.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(Notice, the text has no multi-thousand year gap between verse 5 and verse 6.)
Or, the difficulty of having what appear to be multiple recountings of the final battle and day of judgment.
How do you see it?
As akin to Zechariah's night visions. "And I looked, and behold..."
MarkBsnr, please see post 313. That is where I gave attribution. It has been this same document throughout the thread and Petronski has always known where it came from. I hope that you will not join in his calumny.
“Thank you for reminding me that individual men and their actions are as filthy rags before the Lord.”
That is what I have been trying to say! The works of man are as filthy rags before God. This includes the works that the RCO doctrine is based on.
“Okay, and what is that?”
“If you are not Catholic...”
If you are referring to the Body of Christ, I am a member.
If you are referring to the RCO, I am not a member.
“...then you are almost certainly Protestant and a child of the Reformation.”
I am a Christian. No other descriptor applies.
“Either of the Church or not.”
If you mean the Body of Christ, I am a member.
If you mean the RCO, I am not a member. The RCO is not Christian.
“Who is this RCO and what do they say?”
The RCO is the Roman Catholic Organization. Many of its members have idolatry for organizations.
***Gods Judgment will be on those who have been accorded Grace and squandered it.
Eternal punishment for those who have received the Gospel and done nothing (or evil) with it.
What would or would not need to be done for God to say that a person squandered His Grace? On our best day, our best works are like filthy rags to Him. If we are depending on our works to complete Christs Work then arent all of us dammed?***
If we do not accept His Grace, then we are finished. But after we accept Him, then we must, as in Matthew 25, act as proper stewards of His Grace, just as Peter (and his successors) must act as proper stewards of His Church. What should we do? The world gives us ample opportunity to act in our imitation of Christ. What would Christ do? The Beatitudes gives us good guidelines. We must give of ourselves without hesitation and become selfless to the point of humility before Him. Mother Teresa comes to mind.
***Grace is required; it is not enough according to Jesus since Grace alone is one sided.
If Grace alone is sufficient, then men are only robot slaves or irresponsible infants and that is not how Jesus treated the people that He interacted with.
For Grace to be given, a person has to accept Christ so it isnt once sided. We are then tasked with being repentant to the very utmost of our ability.***
And beyond. Accepting His Grace is not enough. It is like sitting in your LaZBoy chair and having somebody serve you drinks. The tasking (which comes after His Grace) is also required.
***Jesus is Judging him based upon his lack of works after he has been given talents...
So you are saying that works, in addition to Grace, are required. But what exact works? Which works are not seen as filthy rags to Him?***
I believe that for every man, the works are different. A soup kitchen, a charity, a Boy Scout troop, raising a good Christian family, donating to African welfare, cleaning up the river in the community, joining the Guardian Angels might be some of them. The Bible has sufficient guidelines and suggestions. Whatever you do (or don’t do) to the least of my brothers...
***Jesus understood that He was creating a Church of irresponsible men, yet the Church was a perfect Creation (since He created it). Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom; Jesus nominated Peter as the steward on earth until He returns.
I never understood how the Roman Catholic Organization can read the keys passage and get this from it.***
I’m not sure what the Roman Catholic Organization is. Can you clarify?
If you mean that Peter was given the keys, then you must look at the kingdoms of the time. Whenever the king went away for any length of time, he selected a steward to watch over the kingdom. The official protocol was that in a public ceremony of some kind, he would give the steward the keys to the castle, which signified that he was in charge of all (including the wine cellar and the women!!!) until the king returned.
***There is nothing in the passage, however, that says the Body of Christ is the Roman Catholic Organization, that Peter is the first Pope, or that he is to be Christs steward. None of that is in Scripture. Its just tacked in there.***
After Jesus, Peter is by far the most mentioned name in Scripture. Peter speaks for the Apostles, and when Jesus speaks to them, he normally spoke to Peter. Peter was commanded to feed His sheep and He was the first man to perform a miracle. He was the first to convert a Gentile, and he was the only man to ever walk on water.
***Forgiveness of sins comes from Jesus and His appointed here on earth.
Where in Scripture does it say Christ appoints sin filled fallen men on Earth for the purposes of forgiveness?***
There are several passages. John 20:
19
11 12 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
Matthew 16 and 18 deal with Peter, and then the rest of the Apostles being given that authority.
***It may not; we have no explicit instructions from Him that it does not. Therefore we cannot act as if it is.
If you have no instructions that you have to go though all the RCO rituals, then why do you say you should just because Christ didnt explicitly say you shouldnt?***
What is an RCO ritual?
***We were the ones who were there, recorded the fact of the resurrection, and developed the doctrine of the Trinity.
Who is we here? Certainly you yourself werent there. The people who recorded events put their names on the Books they wrote. If you are saying we as in we Christians then it still seems strange. The doctrine of the Trinity is plain to anybody that reads the Bible, it doesnt really need to be developed.***
I count myself as a member of Christ’s Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is not plain. For example, the only Gospel that mentions the divinity of Christ is John and it is circumspect. It took over 300 years to develop the doctrine of the Trinity and many people were declared heretical because they could not accept it. To this day, the JWs and many other cults do not either.
***Christ Himself tells us through the Gospels that we are Judged upon our conduct.
What does a Christian have to do, or not do, to pass this judgment?***
The Beatitudes are an excellent starting point. Each man is called to do something specific to him - the parable of the talents is an illustration.
***I am grateful that you are finding true Christianity handed down from our fathers for the last 2000 years rather than the concoctions of men occupying booths in taverns or huddled with other plotters in Geneva.
I dont understand what this means. Please clarify.***
True Christianity comes from the words of Jesus, the Apostles and the Doctors of the Church, rather than the vain and hubristic mutterings of men like Luther (good living), Calvin (power) or Zwingli (mysticism).
***As I am sure you already know, only the Roman Catholic Church sees the RCC as the one true church***
Since Jesus created it, I think that He views it in the same light.
***...put away misunderstandings of Paul for a short time and concentrate on the Gospels...
This is something I really wish RCO members would do.***
Good for whoever these RCO members are.
***If you start with Paul and view the Gospels through them, then you will come up with far different viewpoints than if you start with the Gospels and view Paul and the NT through them, and the OT through the NT.
If you can come up with a different Biblical interpretation depending on which Book you read first, then you are doing it wrong.***
It all depends on your perspective. If you value Jesus more than the letters of men, then the Gospels come first and you may call yourself Christian. If you value the letters of men, then you are not really Christian, are you?
***I view the words of Jesus Christ far more than any man, even such as Peter and Paul. I suggest that any Christian should as well, otherwise one risks becoming a Paulian.
If you pick and choose out of the Bible, then you are not listening to Gods words, as God inspired every single word coming out of anyone who is talking in the Bible.***
Then we must have a discussion about what God-inspired means. And the relative value of every word. Do you think that the words of Jesus Christ are no more valuable than, for instance, Shemiah?
God has inspired the Bible; yet the words of Jesus are infinitely more valuable than those of Jephthah.
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