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To: Mr Rogers
The Eucharist - literally flesh and blood, or spiritually flesh and blood? I think ....

You just made my point; you are your own pope. There can be only one Truth and one interpretation of that particular truth. The Eucharist IS literally flesh and blood. How dow we know? Because our Lord told us so. John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that "our ancestors ate manna in the desert." Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. "Give us this bread always," they said. Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: "‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct "misunderstandings," for there were none. His listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction? On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

And what was their reaction? In John 6:60 we read: "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’" These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. John 6:66 tells us that "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically. But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood."

49 posted on 08/24/2009 1:08:20 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

“They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?”

Because their hearts were bad, and their rejection of his teaching was a manifestation of their rejection of him. They were not following him as God, or because they sought the truth, but because of miracles. They were ‘disciples’ looking for an earthly King, perhaps.

In any case, we read, “63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.”

Why did Jesus speak in parables? “9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.”

And as John 6 makes plain, not all his disciples were true either. They didn’t get an explanation because they wouldn’t have received it anyways.


50 posted on 08/24/2009 3:17:57 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: NYer

“You just made my point; you are your own pope...”

In a sense. I am the one who will be judged for my life, so I am responsible for the decisions I make. On that day, it won’t help me to say, “But I trusted the Pope!” Not when we know that many Popes have been flagrantly evil men, with no sign at all of knowing or or caring about God.

In Matthew 16, we read, “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

It isn’t what others say that counts for us, “But who do you say that I am?”


51 posted on 08/24/2009 3:23:48 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: NYer

“There can be only one Truth and one interpretation of that particular truth. “

If we are to accept the Roman Catholic Church’s official position on Scripture and doctrine, then how do we reconcile it when they change their minds?

If there can be only one interpretation and their interpretation is the only one allowed (which is a false reading of 2 Peter 1:20), then were they wrong in their interpretation before? What of the teaching regarding “limbo”? Benedict the 16th CHANGED THAT, did he not? Was all previous teaching on the subject error? What else do they have wrong?

Scripture is not a great mystery, only for the sages in robes, but is the Great Mystery - God’s Gift to us! Be mindful of Mark 7:5-7......

(5) So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

(6) He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
(7) They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ (8) You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”


52 posted on 08/24/2009 6:08:56 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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