I have no doubt that MS believes in the Holy Trinity. even though, as she herself pointed out, it is implied in Scripture. I posed the question in response to her comment: I don’t agree with ANY unbiblical stuff. Get it?. She then qualifies her statement with: I disagree with your praying to Mary, the Saints, the infallibility of the Pope, Mariology and a whole lot of other unbiblical stuff.. However, in response to my question on the Trinity, she responded by saying: The trinity isn’t unbiblical. It is clearly inferred even if the word Trinity isn’t used. Read your Bible for yourself and you will see it clearly enough.
In so stating, she and you both went on to defend the Holy Spirit, and in an awesome way. What's disheartening is that neither of you realize or recognize the power of the Holy Spirit as witness to the Truth, even when it is clearly stated in Scripture. This misunderstanding comes through in Mary's statement about the Blessed Mother, the Saints, the infallibility of the pope, etc. All of these are biblical. We honor Mary because Jesus Christ honored her. Even before our Lord was born, heaven acknowledged her special status. How do we know this? Scripture tells us so in Luke 1:28. Holy Scripture further proclaims of her that "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48), because from her womb came forth God in the flesh. This means that all who believe in Christ and in the Bible must give special honor and veneration to the one that is "blessed among women."
It is no different with the saints. The most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do in 1 Cor. 4:16. Veneration is not worship. But what about those who are dead? In 2 Macc. 15:12-16, we learn that the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
I have nothing but respect for Evangelical christians. If anything, the joy and enthusiasm emanating from these communities is reminiscent of the earliest christians. The Evangelical Church is still quite young. It has been intriguing to witness not only its congregational growth but also its spritual one, as well. Remarkably, it is following a pattern similar to those early christian churches. Some Evangelicals have now begun a monastic life, much like the great stylite saints of the east. And, like the early christian churches, the Evangelical Church has begun to experience the rupture that results from those who disagree with its direction. Did our Lord not forsee how human nature (i.e. jealousy) would eventually split apart His Church? He is God; He knows all things. That is why He did not leave us to our own devices. He left behind a Church.
Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).
By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).
When Jesus was brought before Pilate, he asked Him: "What is Truth"? An Examination of Sola Scriptura
May our Lord continue to bless and guide you both! Pax et Bonum
“This misunderstanding comes through in Mary’s statement about the Blessed Mother, the Saints, the infallibility of the pope, etc. All of these are biblical. We honor Mary because Jesus Christ honored her. Even before our Lord was born, heaven acknowledged her special status. How do we know this? Scripture tells us so in Luke 1:28. Holy Scripture further proclaims of her that “henceforth all generations shall call me blessed” (Luke 1:48), because from her womb came forth God in the flesh. This means that all who believe in Christ and in the Bible must give special honor and veneration to the one that is “blessed among women.”
I was told a while back that if you have to base a doctrine on one verse, you’d better take another look at your doctrine!
Luke 1:28 reads, “ 28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
That doesn’t come close to showing Mary as Co-anything, or our intercessor to her son, whom we have direct access to. She may have been the mother of Jesus, but according to scripture, I’m his brother.
Luke 1:48 says, “For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.” And indeed, this is true. She was blessed by God.
This does not mean “...that all who believe in Christ and in the Bible must give special honor and veneration to the one that is “blessed among women.”
On the contrary, when a woman raised this with Jesus, He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Jesus specifically REJECTED special veneration for Mary.
Imitating the saints? Excellent. I think Protestants (including my fellow Baptists) do a great disservice to ourselves and others by not talking about the saints and martyrs who have gone before us. Veneration? Guess that brings a different connotation to me than imitation does.
Church foundation? Well, Paul wrote, “11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Jesus said, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”
Since Peter isn’t the foundation, it means something other than, “You are the foundation my church will be built on”. Like most Protestants, I interpret it as meaning A) Peter’s exclamation is what the church is built on, since it places Jesus as the foundation, and B) the keys refer to Peter’s opening the church to the Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles a short time later.
However, Jesus specifically REJECTED the idea that Peter was the greatest of the Apostles, or First among them, or Vicar. It was just 4 chapters later that we read:
“20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something. 21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Say that these two sons of mine are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” 24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Notice the other disciples did NOT believe Jesus taught them earlier that Peter was supreme over anyone, and Jesus took this opportunity to hammer it home.
I make no insult to Peter. He argued for scripture to be the anchor against false teaching, not him or his successors.
2 Peter 1/2: “I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”
After teaching about Scripture, he points out that false teachers have arisen before and will again. But Peter has just pointed out that Scripture comes from God, so he has shown us how to know who is teaching falsely. Not Bishops. Peter doesn’t say “Follow me, and my Successor”, but Scripture comes from God.
Your church did not determine what was scripture, but ratified what the churches were already using. The hierarchy was confirming the practice, but no one had waited to call it scripture until the councils in the late 300s. 2 Peter calls Pauls writings scripture. The early church did NOT go nearly 400 years without scripture!
It is also worth remembering that on the road to Emmaus, Jesus Himself, just risen from the dead, used scripture for authority in teaching. “he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.”
May God bless you.