[topcat54]

[Sorry, that last paragraph got truncated.]

The other language in Matthew 24 is highly symbolic and follows the pattern established with the prophets in the OT. E.g., Isaiah 13:10; “For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.” This language is used to describe the temporal judgment against the ancient nation of Babylon. And so there is good reason to interpret similar language in Matthew 24 as referring to the temporal judgment against ancient Israel in the 1st century. In fact this is confirmed by examining the parallel passage in Luke 21 where specific reference is made to “Jerusalem surrounded by armies”.

[JohnnyM]

Isaiah 13 proves our point. It has to do with the end times. Lets look closer at this chapter:

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.

8 Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.

9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

...

19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' [b] pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 She will never be inhabited
or lived in through all generations;
no Arab will pitch his tent there,
no shepherd will rest his flocks there.

Now compare to Revelation

Rev 6:12 - I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

Rev 16:
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Rev 18
9 And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,
10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."
21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

There is much in common between Revelation and Isaiah 13 in regards to Babylon. Isaiah 13 is speaking of the ultimate destruction of Babylon, which has not happened. There are people living in Babylon today, yet the Isaiah passage says no one will inhabit Babylon through all generations. To write it off to apocalyptic language, basically saying God doesn't come through on His promises, is a recipe for disaster. We see Babylons final destruction taking place in Revelation and Matthew 24 is giving a quick overview if these events.

Now you still haven't answered the question though of why Matthew says after the tribulation, then will come the Lord in a cloud. Shouldn't the coming of the Lord be the cause of the Great Tribulation? If so, then why is it happening after?

JM

[JohnnyM]

"This language is used to describe the temporal judgment against the ancient nation of Babylon."

Temporal?? Are you sure?

Isaiah 13:20 - It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there.

JM

[Godzilla]

The other language in Matthew 24 is highly symbolic and follows the pattern established with the prophets in the OT. E.g., Isaiah 13:10; “For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.”

The sun stopped shining while Jesus was on the cross - or was that simply 'symbolic' language by the writers of the gospels, or was a an actual, physically perceived event? Was the cataclysm of Noah a real or 'symbolic' language?

And so there is good reason to interpret similar language in Matthew 24 as referring to the temporal judgment against ancient Israel in the 1st century. In fact this is confirmed by examining the parallel passage in Luke 21 where specific reference is made to “Jerusalem surrounded by armies”.

Please make your mind up - is the language of Mt 24 highly symbolic or literal as in your citation of the parallel in Luke 21. If you are going to call it literal, then you must take Luke 21:24 as literal too, where Jesus says . . Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24). Jesus makes it clear that there is a period of time Jerusalem would be trodden down by the 'Gentiles' for Lk 21:28 links the end of this period resulting in the redemption of Israel. The judgements within that context point to an endtime scenario - not an AD70 one. Did the sun shine or was it darkened? Scriptural precident indicates that it was a literal darkening then and would be a literal darkening at the second coming.

[Quix]

[Sorry, that last paragraph got truncated.]

Ah well, most of us realize that the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al perspectives were truncated from THE UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL TRUTH LONG AGO.

The other language in Matthew 24 is highly symbolic

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes, after the style of the TRADITIONAL HIGHER CRITICISM ROUTE TO HELLISH DECEPTION.

How grand.
How erudite.
How informed.
How discerning.
How clever.
/sar

How seductive.
How fool-hardy.
How damning.
How blasphemous.
How heretical.