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To: Godzilla
Let me take just one of your objections and demonstrate how it is devoid of biblical perspective.

There have been greater tribulations for Israel in the years past AD70 (24:21)

Quoting from an excellent paper on the subject:

After quoting this passage [Matt. 24:21-22], futurists will argue that since Jesus refers to a tribulation that is the worst the world has ever seen or ever will see, that it must refer to events that have not yet occurred, that must immediately precede the second bodily coming of Christ. If we take Jesus' expression regarding the severity of this tribulation in isolation from the rest of Scripture such an objection seems irrefutable. After all, no one would argue that the destruction of Jerusalem was worse than the havoc caused by the black plague in the middle ages, or the slaughter of World War I or World War II. Certainly, it was not as bad as the holocaust where estimates of the Nazi extermination of the Jews reach six million souls. But, if one takes our Lord's statement and interprets it within the broad and narrow context of Scripture this common argument falls to the ground.

There are a number of solid scriptural arguments as to why Jesus' statement applies directly to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. First, (as we noted earlier) the time indicator in verse 34 ("this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place") cannot be dismissed by arbitrary forced interpretations of the word "generation." Our Lord was very specific in His statement. He did not say "some things" or even "the things" but "all these things." Christ's statement should not be ignored or redefined to fit one's own preconceptions about "the great tribulation."

Second, Jesus was using dramatic hyperbole or a proverbial method of speech taken directly from the Old Testament. Note the words spoken by Ezekiel regarding the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. "And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations" (Ezek. 5:9). Does this passage teach that Israel endured the worst judgment in human history in the 6th century B.C.? No. No one believes that the destruction wrought by the Babylonians was worse than that of the Romans in A.D. 70. The point is that the destruction will be severe, excruciating and unique. Similarly Daniel says, "by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:12). "And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time" (Dan. 12:1). "The language of v. 19 [i.e., Mk. 13:19 the parallel to Mt. 24:21], as also of Dan, 12:1, which it cites, uses traditional expressions to denote severe tribulation, not simply of Israel but of other people also." For example, such language is even used to describe the anguish of the Egyptians after the tenth plague. "Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again" (Ex. 11:6; cf. 9:18; 10:14). "The cry of anguish sent up by this destruction will be unique, just as the disaster will be unique." Morison writes regarding Matthew 24:21, "It is superlative in its relation both to the past and to the future. We might explain this superlative mode of representation by the freedom which is universally assumed and accorded in popular speech. Men speak unhesitantly, when referring to anything remarkable, of the 'highest,' the 'greatest,' the 'extremist.' It is an idiom of hyperbolism."

If futurist interpreters want to insist on taking Jesus' words literally (meaning that a future tribulation is coming that will be by far the worst thing to happen in human history), then they must argue that Ezekiel, Exodus and Daniel were not meant to be taken literally while Jesus' words were. Such a view, however, is both arbitrary and inconsistent. If all are taken literally then Scripture contradicts itself, for two or more different events cannot all be the worst thing that ever happened.

Matthew 24 and the Great Tribulation by Brian Schwertley.

I would encourage you to read the entire paper. Apart from being non-dispensational, it thoroughly demolishes all your objections directly from the Bible.
300 posted on 07/28/2009 8:03:30 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54
("this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place")

Ah, its the old 'generation' argument. First response is that the generation Jesus was referring to was that generation that these signs started to appear infront of (ie the parable of the fig tree), not that specific generation. Here is the response.

Preterism argues that the textual basis for interpreting prophecy as having been fulfilled in the past is Jesus’ use of the phrase “this generation” as only and always having reference to the first-century generation to whom He spoke. Futurism, by contrast, accepts some uses of “this generation” as having reference to those to whom Jesus spoke and other uses as having reference to those about whom Jesus spoke, with context being the determining factor. For example, the use of “this generation” in Matthew 23:36 is applied as an indictment (in context) to the generation of the “scribes and Pharisees” (Matthew 23:29) whose actions against Jesus demonstrate their affinity with previous persecutors of the Prophets (verses 30-35). Jesus’ then pronounces sentence with the words “all these things shall come upon this generation.” The phrase “these things” must also be interpreted in its context. In this case, the next verse (verse 37) describes “these things” as the future experience of Temple deolation. It is important to observe here that even though now historically past, “this generation” in context was a future generation at the time of its being originally spoken by Jesus and being recorded by Matthew. It was future from the perspective of the sins “this generation” (in context) would yet commit (complicity in the crucifixion) and the judgment they would receive (the Roman destruction in AD 70 (Luke 21:20-24).

Further Even though in context Jesus may refer to the future “this generation” as “you,” this is a conventional usage of language with respect to reference and does not have to ultimately apply to a present audience.12 Such usage is found in Old Testament prophetic sections. For example, Moses uses language similar to Jesus when he says “So it will be when all of these things have come upon you ...” (Deuteronomy 30:1a). Even though he is speaking to the present generation (‘you”), it is evident from the context that his words speak about a future generation that will live thousands of years later and into the eschatological period. “This generation” (the “you”) are those who will have already suffered the judgment of exile (verse 1b), captivity (verse 3), been regathered and restored (verses 4-5), and received spiritual regeneration (“circumcision of heart,” verse 6). The future sense of “this generation” in a judgment context sets a precedence for its interpretation in contexts that are both judicial and eschatological. If the desolation experienced by “this generation” in Matthew 23:36 can be understood as a future fulfillment that came some 40 years later, it should not be a problem to understood the Tribulation judgment as a future fulfillment that will come on the generation that will experience it at the end of the age. However, the difference is not simply a span of time, but the nature of that time as eschatological. For the “this generation” of Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32, “all these things” (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:28) must refer contextually to the events of the “Great Tribulation,” the conclusion of “the times of the Gentiles,” the coming of Christ in glory, and the regathering and redemption of Israel, all of which are not only declared to be future by Jesus at the time of speaking (Mark 13:23), but also cast in typical eschatological language (for example, “end of the age,” “such as not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall,” “powers of the heavens will be shaken”). )Dr. Randall Price)

You see, the last part of this, Jesus' own words “such as not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall,” are played very loosy goosy by your source. While acknowledging WW2, he then discounts it. What part of EVER SHALL BE is that hard to understand?

f futurist interpreters want to insist on taking Jesus' words literally (meaning that a future tribulation is coming that will be by far the worst thing to happen in human history), then they must argue that Ezekiel, Exodus and Daniel were not meant to be taken literally while Jesus' words were.

It amazes me that Mr. Schwertley is so ignorant of dispensation interpretations. Had he honestly evaluated the use of the cited OT prophets, he would have read a different understanding. As is, he reads them through the rose colored glasses of preterism - theology driving scripture interpretation. Again, the simple phrase EVER SHALL BE is trodden under foot, making Jesus out to be a liar and false prophet.

302 posted on 07/28/2009 8:39:36 PM PDT by Godzilla (TEA - Taxed Enough Already)
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To: topcat54; Godzilla
"If futurist interpreters want to insist on taking Jesus' words literally... "

The interesting thing is that the preterists will take the "this generation" statement from v.34 literally, but in the same breath will say that Matt 24:21 is figurative or hyperbolic. In fact, v.21 occurs in the section of the discourse that is very literal (i.e. flee from your homes, there will be false Christs and wars, etc), but v.34 occurs in the part of the discourse that is very figurative amongst the parables.

Let us also note, that when Jesus prefaces a statement with "Truly I say to you" it is almost ALWAYS hyperbolic.

- Matthew 8:10 - Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel
- Matt 10:15 - Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city
- Matt 10:23 - "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes
- Matt 17:20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you
- Matt 19:23-24 - And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
- Matt 21:31 - Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you

JM
303 posted on 07/29/2009 6:29:30 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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