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When I Was A Dispy No More
FIDE-O ^ | July 25, 2006 | Jason Robertson

Posted on 07/23/2009 7:06:14 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

THEN

I have always been a Southern Baptist. I was saved in a SBC church and surrendered to God's call to preach in that same church five years later. Later, I attended Liberty Univ. and graduated from an SBC college and from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. I was a defender of Progressive Dispensationalism and a confused 4 point Calvinist.

I actually preached a stronger Calvinistic message than most SBC churches were accustomed to hearing. And unlike most SBC preachers, I never really preached on the end times much. In fact, when I preached through the Book of Revelation I always preached just one sermon that would cover chapters 6 through 19. Hey, I believed in a pre-trib rapture so why bother with the details of the Tribulation!

Through the years, the more I studied and the more I expounded the Word of God, the more Calvinistic I became. It has never caused me a problem in my SBC circles, and those of you who know me know that I am not ashamed to be a known as a Calvinist. I am a church-planting, evangelistic, pastor-theologian 5-point-plus Calvinist who wishes everybody was one.

NOW

But let me tell you about something that happened to me in the recent past. As I studied church history and historical orthodox Christianity, I found the rumors about Dispensationalism being a recent phenomenon to be true. Not only that, I realized how that Dispensationalism had entirely skewed my theology too many ways to count. I discovered Covenant theology and began to marvel at its comprehensiveness. I virtually devoured it, spending untold hours reading everything I could from men that I respected and trusted. I had always read books about CT and various Millennial views,but those books were usually written by men who were Dispensational. I had never really taken the time to let Covenant theologians speak for themselves. Although I wasn't convinced at first glance, every new understanding led to new questions. I became a practical Pan-Millennialist for a while -- the only thing I knew for sure was that it would all pan out!

Finally, when I emerged from my studies, I had went from being a Reformed Baptist who was a Pre-tribulational-Rapture Progressive-Dispensational theologian to being a Reformed Baptist who is an Amillennial Covenant theologian. I know that is a radical change, but trust me it wasn’t hard. It hurt somewhat -- all those years, all those sermons. (I will discuss my amillennial views in a later post.)

But now so much of what I had once just chalked up as "mystery" now made theological sense. I understood the Tribulation to have literally happened in the first century as Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John had prophesied. I understood the kingdom to have come spiritually in the hearts of God’s people as He saves the elect, Jew and Gentile from the “four winds of the earth.” I understood Satan’s power to be bound in submission to the authority of the church, unable to prevail against the Gospel's progress. I understood the “rapture” and “second coming” to be the same second and final advent of our Lord who will at that time complete the Redemption story and judge everyone once and for all "according to the books" and create a new heaven and earth. I understood all the covenants of the Old Testament and their continuity and unity. But what caught me off guard the most is the realization that all God has ever promised to His children is for me – not some future geo-political ethnic group on the other side of the world. My prayer for the Jews is that they get saved and thus enter into this spiritual kingdom that I am living in now. I now understand what I have always expected to be true – God doesn’t have two sets of children; there is one set of children, one set of saints, one body, one bride, one elect. Oh! the beauty of God’s plan of Redemption!

For me Covenant theology is an hermeneutic, an approach to understanding the Scripture—an approach that attempts to biblically explain the unity of biblical revelation. Covenant theology is both a biblical and systematic theology.

COVENANT THEOLOGY DEFINED
Covenant theology is the Gospel set in the context of God’s eternal plan of communion with his people, and its historical outworking in the covenants of works and grace (as well as in the various progressive stages of the covenant of grace). Covenant theology explains the meaning of the death of Christ in light of the fullness of the biblical teaching on the divine covenants, undergirds our understanding of the nature and use of the sacraments, and provides the fullest possible explanation of the grounds of our assurance.

To put it another way, Covenant theology is the Bible’s way of explaining and deepening our understanding of:
(1) the atonement [the meaning of the death of Christ];
(2) assurance [the basis of our confidence of communion with God and enjoyment of his promises];
(3) the sacraments [signs and seals of God’s covenant promises — what they are and how they work];
(4) the continuity of redemptive history [the unified plan of God’s salvation].

When Jesus wanted to explain the significance of His death to His disciples, He went to the doctrine of the covenants (see Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, 1 Corinthians 11). When God wanted to assure Abraham of the certainty of His word of promise, He went to the covenant (Genesis 12, 15, and 17). When God wanted to set apart His people, ingrain His work in their minds, tangibly reveal Himself in love and mercy, and confirm their future inheritance, He gave the covenant signs (Genesis 17, Exodus 12, 17, and 31, Matthew 28, Acts 2, Luke 22). When Luke wanted to show early Christians that Jesus’ life and ministry were the fulfillment of God’s ancient purposes for His chosen people, he went to the covenants and quoted Zacharias’ prophecy which shows that believers in the very earliest days of ‘the Jesus movement’ understood Jesus and His messianic work as a fulfillment (not a ‘Plan B’) of God’s covenant with Abraham (Luke 1:72-73). When the Psalmist and the author of Hebrews want to show how God’s redemptive plan is ordered and on what basis it unfolds in history, they went to the covenants (see Psalm 78, 89, Hebrews 6-10).

Covenant theology is not a response to dispensationalism. It existed long before the rudiments of classical dispensationalism were brought together in the nineteenth century. Covenant theology is not an excuse for baptizing children, nor merely a convention to justify a particular approach to the sacraments (modern paedocommunionism and baptismal regenerationism). Covenant theology is not sectarian, but an ecumenical Reformed approach to understanding the Bible, developed in the wake of the magisterial Reformation, but with roots stretching back to the earliest days of catholic Christianity and historically appreciated in all the various branches of the Reformed community (Baptist, Congregationalist, Independent, Presbyterian, Anglican, and Reformed). Covenant theology cannot be reduced to serving merely as the justification for some particular view of children in the covenant (covenant successionism), or for a certain kind of eschatology, or for a specific philosophy of education (whether it be homeschooling or Christian schools or classical schools). Covenant theology is bigger than that. It is more important than that.

“The doctrine of the covenant lies at the root of all true theology. It has been said that he who well understands the distinction between the covenant of works and the covenant of grace, is a master of divinity. I am persuaded that most of the mistakes which men make concerning the doctrines of Scripture, are based upon fundamental errors with regard to the covenant of law and of grace. May God grant us now the power to instruct, and you the grace to receive instruction on this vital subject.” Who said this? C.H. Spurgeon — the great English Baptist preacher! Certainly a man beyond our suspicion of secretly purveying a Presbyterian view of the sacraments to the unsuspecting evangelical masses.

Covenant theology flows from the trinitarian life and work of God. God’s covenant communion with us is modeled on and a reflection of the intra-trinitarian relationships. The shared life, the fellowship of the persons of the Holy Trinity, what theologians call perichoresis or circumincessio, is the archetype of the relationship the gracious covenant God shares with His elect and redeemed people. God’s commitments in the eternal covenant of redemptive find space-time realization in the covenant of grace.

J. Ligon Duncan III, PhD, Senior Minister,
First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, MS.

Posted with the permission of Dr. Duncan.
I agree with S. M. Baugh [1] who said that Covenant theology is "not incidental to Reformed theology -- it is Reformed theology." Baugh also noted, "Covenant is the fabric of the whole Bible. Once this fundamental schema of covenant in the Scriptures comes clear, all the patterns of God's relations with the sons and daughters of Adam unfolds into a rich tapestry unifying the Scriptures. "[1] S.M. Baugh (Ph.D., UC Irvine) is associate professor of NT at Westminster Theological Seminary in California.

Of course, many of my brothers and colleagues are not CT, much less Post-Mill, but these issues are definitely not ones that would cause me to break fellowship. In fact, I have a comprehensive understanding of all the prominent Protestant positions and have respect for them all in different ways. Do you have any idea how many charts I could draw??!!

I am a true Baptist of the Puritan kind. I pray for a revival of Biblical and systematic theology among the SBC pastors due to the inerrancy victories. I am confident in God's providence, joyfully victorious in God's kingdom and optimistic about the future.

I love to be taught God's Word, and I love teaching it to faithful men who will teach it also.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
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To: Alex Murphy
Amen. Great thread, Alex.

I understood the Tribulation to have literally happened in the first century as Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John had prophesied. I understood the kingdom to have come spiritually in the hearts of God's people as He saves the elect, Jew and Gentile from the "four winds of the earth." I understood Satan's power to be bound in submission to the authority of the church, unable to prevail against the Gospel's progress. I understood the "rapture" and "second coming" to be the same second and final advent of our Lord who will at that time complete the Redemption story and judge everyone once and for all "according to the books" and create a new heaven and earth. I understood all the covenants of the Old Testament and their continuity and unity. But what caught me off guard the most is the realization that all God has ever promised to His children is for me, not some future geo-political ethnic group on the other side of the world.

Amen and amen! "All one in Christ Jesus."

21 posted on 07/23/2009 9:04:25 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: UriÂ’el-2012

Thought I’d included you to the above.


23 posted on 07/23/2009 9:09:47 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Alex Murphy

*** Do you have any idea how many charts I could draw??!!***

Can you do as many as Clarence Larkin did? Some of his are in error yet still published in dispensational books today.


24 posted on 07/23/2009 9:11:20 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (La commedia e' finita!. Now it's serious!)
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To: Dan Middleton
Once a person sincerely asks Christ to become their Lord and Savior, their salvation is assured... Subsequently, a person may choose to live a degenerate life... but in the end, God is faithful even when we are faithless.

WOOT! Bring on the hookers and blow, and what the wife don't know won't hurt her!It's anything goes, fellas -- we're Saved!

25 posted on 07/23/2009 9:12:16 AM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Texan. Monarchist. Any questions?)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Halgr

Do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.


27 posted on 07/23/2009 9:20:13 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Alex Murphy
Finally, when I emerged from my studies, I had went from being a Reformed Baptist who was a Pre-tribulational-Rapture Progressive-Dispensational theologian to being a Reformed Baptist who is an Amillennial Covenant theologian. I know that is a radical change....

Well, actually, Pastor, the only reasons why it matters which kind of "millenialist" you are, are bad reasons. You're drawing extremely silly distinctions that have no effect other than to encourage splintering along obscure human-doctrinal lines.

Somehow I don't think that was quite what Jesus had in mind when He said to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

28 posted on 07/23/2009 9:20:22 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: B-Chan

Why would a person who has made Christ their Lord and savior want to involve themselves in that kind of sin?

And why is it so hard for some people to grasp the concept that people might refrain from sinning out of a desire to please God rather than purely self-interested fear of punishment?

I submit that if the only thing that keep a person from winning is the fear that they’ll lose their salvation...they probably never had it to begin with.

I’m done.


29 posted on 07/23/2009 9:22:06 AM PDT by Dan Middleton
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To: Alex Murphy
***I have always been a Southern Baptist. I was saved in a SBC church and surrendered to God's call to preach in that same church five years later.***

The SBC has never (to my knowledge) acknowledged the Dispensational Theology or the Schofield Reference Bible even though those fads have really overtaken the churches (along with quite a few Pentecostal and Assemblies of God).
I noticed the preacher at our SBC church has never made a statement on dispensationalism and yet is an excellent teacher. the only time I ever almost fell asleep was after working 12 hour midnight shifts. Notice I said “almost”! I did check my eyelids for light leaks a few times.

The Independent Baptist churches may be different. John R Rice never went the Dispensational and his booklets show it. Curtis Hutson later embraced the full Dispenstional positions and they offered a small sized Schofield Reference Bible for sale.

I dumped my Schofield years ago and now use a KJV (Cambridge and Oxford published in England) because I was raised with it and understand it.

30 posted on 07/23/2009 9:25:07 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (La commedia e' finita!. Now it's serious!)
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To: Quix
[vomit reproduced in b&w, original technicolor stripped for palatibility]

And the train wrecks yet again! What a stinking pile of UNBiblical irrationality!....It was gratifying to notice the list of adherents to this silly pile of RUBBER BIBLEd nonsense. I kept reading down the list assuming there might be someone of lasting substance there . . . instead it seems to be a list entirely of theological 'also-rans.'

Once again I am kept waiting. Are you incapable of keeping your word?

31 posted on 07/23/2009 9:28:05 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

Saying you are saved, and believing you are saved are different things.

I was raised Catholic AND THEN accepted Christ. It’s not that all of my Catholic life had been fake, or in vain, or not relevant. I simply could not see Christ for the institution I was in. That simple.

I have more respect and love for Catholicism as a saved Christian than I did when I wasn’t. You have to know people who are life-long Catholics, go to Mass every Sunday, and have next to zero faith life - no connection between their actions and their beliefs.

Being saved is something that changes you such that you begin living in search of understanding what would motivate God to put Christ through what he went through for an ungrateful people. You know the saved through their actions, and I don’t mean by their charitable contributions, volunteerism, et. al.

I mean that the saved CAN be a more humble bunch that tries to pay God’s gift forward to others.

Often, the saved confuse salvation with perfection, and then in ways that drive people from Christ instead of towards Him.

Ghandi once quipped something along the lines of “We have great respect for Christ, but no use for Christians.”

You are as big a sinner after you are saved than you were before. You still make idiotic mistakes. You still think with your little head and not the big head. All of that still applies, and you can still ignore the small, still voice in your head.

Being saved does not at all means that you aren’t held accountable for your sins or your actions. You will still stand trial, both in this life and the next. Your salvation, however, has been purchased.

Too many think salvation is like some pill that allows you to eat anything you want without gaining weight. It isn’t.


32 posted on 07/23/2009 9:30:47 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: Quix

I knew you’d show up on this thread. LOL


33 posted on 07/23/2009 9:32:06 AM PDT by ChocChipCookie (Survival is a Mom's Job! Check out my blog: www.thesurvivalmom.com)
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To: Dan Middleton

Should read “from sinnning,” obviously.

OK, Now I’m done. :-)


34 posted on 07/23/2009 9:34:10 AM PDT by Dan Middleton
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To: Dan Middleton
Why would a person who has made Christ their Lord and savior want to involve themselves in that kind of sin?

You'd have to ask the Popes of the Middle Ages for an answer to that question.

Related threads:
How the Renaissance Papacy contributed to the Reformation
The Popes of Rome
THE CADAVER SYNOD: STRANGEST TRIAL IN HISTORY

35 posted on 07/23/2009 9:35:46 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal
Here's my understanding:

Salvation is not an event--it's a process. It's that road you walk to become more like Jesus. As long as you are on that road--going in the proper direction--you are on your way to salvation.

Once you stop, you are not saved. I don't believe in "once saved, always saved" nor do I believe that we are micromanaged into salvation. It is our decision. Our faith keeps us going, and our works show our faith to the world. They are linked in the sense that our works exhibit our spiritual maturity--not that our works play a part in our salvation.

36 posted on 07/23/2009 9:44:30 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Dan Middleton
Why would a person who has made Christ their Lord and savior want to involve themselves in that kind of sin?

I don't know--why would a person who actually walked, talked, and communed with God personally, and in the flesh want to involve themselves in any kind of sin? Yet it happened, which is why we are having this discussion.

37 posted on 07/23/2009 9:49:13 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Alex Murphy

In order to avoid making it publicly personal, I will respond to you by FREEPMAIL.

I persist in keeping my word.


38 posted on 07/23/2009 9:49:23 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: allthingsnew
Amen!

The WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH is a valuable Scriptural tool by which we can further know His faithful mercy.

39 posted on 07/23/2009 9:51:49 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: ChocChipCookie

I gather that some folks lose their capacity to tell when their bell has been rung.

God has been merciful in that regard.

I assume you’ve noticed the clique who show up with great hostility on ‘my’ END TIMES threads? It’s called a PUBLIC FORUM regardless of RC’s and others’ efforts to make it a parochial or personal fifedom.


40 posted on 07/23/2009 9:54:57 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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