[Quix]

No one has the power to countermand Christ

nor to countermand Scripture

nor to make of a political, bureaucratic, pile of stinking human power mongering

anything the least bit pure . . . whether as the Vatican/RC edifice or any other.

[Petronski]

No one has the power to countermand Christ nor to countermand Scripture...

Yes. I just said that.

Christ founded the Catholic Church circa AD 33 and no one has the power to countermand that.

[bdeaner]

No one has the power to countermand Christ

Certainly, the Catholic Church would be in complete agreement with you on this.

nor to make of a political, bureaucratic, pile of stinking human power mongering

No question these problems are pervasive in any and all human institutions. The Catholic Church is no exception! And I think any honest Catholic would be lying if they said otherwise. HOWEVER, that does not take away from the Catholic Church's authority with regard to it's role in preserving and teaching the Deposit of Faith through the Magisterium -- which is an authority not personally merited by any person who composes these offices, but rather that authority which can only be gratuitously granted through the power of the Holy Spirit sent by Our Lord. In spite of the corruption of the people who compose the Magisterium, we believe, due to Christ's promises in Scripture, the Holy Spirit nevertheless guides the Church IN SPITE OF IT'S SINFUL MEMBERS, to teach TRUTH.

Beyond that: Reading Vatican II, the Catholic Church has basically said that ANYWHERE ANYONE teaches what is objectively TRUE of Our Lord and is guided by the Holy Spirit, THEY BELONG TO THE CHURCH! This is really the message of the post re: the meaning of "No Salvation Outside of the Church," which was clarified by the Vatican II ecumenical council. It is a remarkable and historical clarification by the Magisterium with regard to the meaning of "Church." I think it's a shame that this message has gotten lost in a lot of the flame wars going on in these posts on this thread, but oh well...

[bdeaner]

No one has the power to countermand Christ

Certainly, the Catholic Church would be in complete agreement with you on this.

nor to make of a political, bureaucratic, pile of stinking human power mongering

No question these problems are pervasive in any and all human institutions. The Catholic Church is no exception! And I think any honest Catholic would be lying if they said otherwise. HOWEVER, that does not take away from the Catholic Church's authority with regard to it's role in preserving and teaching the Deposit of Faith through the Magisterium -- which is an authority not personally merited by any person who composes these offices, but rather that authority which can only be gratuitously granted through the power of the Holy Spirit sent by Our Lord. In spite of the corruption of the people who compose the Magisterium, we believe, due to Christ's promises in Scripture, the Holy Spirit nevertheless guides the Church IN SPITE OF IT'S SINFUL MEMBERS, to teach TRUTH.

Beyond that: Reading Vatican II, the Catholic Church has basically said that ANYWHERE ANYONE teaches what is objectively TRUE of Our Lord and is guided by the Holy Spirit, THEY BELONG TO THE CHURCH! This is really the message of the post re: the meaning of "No Salvation Outside of the Church," which was clarified by the Vatican II ecumenical council. It is a remarkable and historical clarification by the Magisterium with regard to the meaning of "Church." I think it's a shame that this message has gotten lost in a lot of the flame wars going on in these posts on this thread, but oh well...