Petronski:
Yes, there may be some hyper enthusiasts with respect to the term alter Christus or inpersona Christi, which means nothing other that the Priest does not act on his own. As Pope Benedict states in Spirit of the Liturgy (p. 216), The Liturgical attire worn by the priest during the Holy Mass should first and foremost make clear that he does not sand there as a private person, as this or that man, but stands in place of another—Christ..What is private or individual about him should disappear and make way for Christ for as St. Paul states “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). So the Priesthood makes present, through the sacrament the priesthood of Christ, for St Paul himself described his own ministry as a priestly ministry (c.f. Romans 15:16)
Mr. Rogers: I made an earlier post [#677], which outlines the Catholic position on the Eucharist. In addition, here is a link to the Catechism that gives more detail.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/
PugetSound:
So your a former Catholic. Ok, fair enough. I think to say the Eucharist does not matter is something that no Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox Can accept. I think the differences in sacramental theology are also linked to differences in the doctrine of justification and Grace. Here again is another long post of mine, hey I am an academic by profession and like to pontificate, LOL. I think it provides a basis for why the Eucharist as a Sacrament is something that can’t be taken lightly.
Catholic Doctrine, all of it, connects the Doctrine of Incarnation with the Doctrine of the Cross. This would include ecclesiology, doctrine of justification, and Sacramental theology. Sacraments are tied to both Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery (Passion, Death, Resurrection, etc). Again, Pope Benedict’s great quote from his book Jesus of Nazareth where the Pope links Incarnation and Cross Together will suffice here once again:
• Pope Benedict in Jesus of Nazareth (p. 269) states “ In this Chapter the theology of Incarnation and the Theology of the Cross come together; the two cannot be separated. There are thus no grounds for setting up and opposition between Easter theology of the Synoptics and St. Paul, on one hand, and St. John’s supposedly purely incarnational theology, on the other. For the goal of the Word’s becoming-flesh spoken of by the prologue is precisely the offering of his body on the Cross, which the sacrament makes accessible to us”
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 460) we see salvation linked to “participation of the Divine Nature” or what the Eastern Tradition refers to as “Theosis”, which is a beautiful Doctrine that states that Human beings can have communion with God, and thus become like God to such a degree that humans can “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). We become united with God by his Grace, through his son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The process of “Theosis” starts at Baptism where the CCC states the Baptized person has become a New Creature, (see CCC para. 1265)
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1
So the Catholic Church sees that through the Incarnation and Cross/Resurrection/Ascension, God has given us access to his Mercy and Love and by his Grace, which God gives us through the Sacraments, the inner person becomes renewed and transformed by Grace and through that Grace we become United to God and thus like God by Grace which of course God is by nature. In other words, Christ trough his Grace allows us to “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). So through the incarnation of Christ, God is now really accessible to us and wants us to be in “communion with him”.
So in Catholic Doctrine, as in Protestant Doctrine, it is Grace that saves. Grace, in Catholic Doctrine, is defined as “The free and undeserved gift of God that he gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children. As Sanctifying Grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, and to act by his love. As Actual Grace, God gives us the help to conform our lives to his will. Sacramental Grace is a gift of the Holy Spirit to help us live out our Christian vocation [See CCC 1996 and 2000].
Looking at the Catholic Definition above, I think there is a difference in how Grace is understood in Catholic doctrine, versus Protestant Doctrine(s), and what it does to the person, In Catholic Doctrine, Grace is transformative, rather than a purely external covering [Calvinist and Lutheran position] and thus we have communion with God. In other words, if salvation is union with God, how is it that God is still external to me if the forensic declaration of Calvin and Luther is correct. I think the differences in understanding human anthropology and how in Catholic doctrine, original sin distorted our image that God created us, but did not destroy it, and thus Grace restores us fully back into the image of God (c.f. Genesis 1:27) and as the Book of Wisdom records [yes, I know it is not in the your OT], we read “For God created man for incorruption and made him in the image of his own eternity but through the devil’s envy death entered the world” (Wisdom 2: 23-24) [on another doctrinal point, this passage is the first to link the serpent in Genesis as being the Satan].
So Grace then transforms us back into the image that God intended for us before the fall. Sacraments, which are the normative means through which God gives us grace are defined as “An efficacious sign of Grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit.” The Sacraments, which include Baptism and Eucharist, then are the means through which God gives us Grace, which saves us and transforms and gives us communion with the Holy Trinity. So, the Eucharist then does save us in the sense that it does give us Grace and sustains us through this life. Grace then sanctifies us by healing our human nature, wounded by sin [note not destroyed] and giving us a share in the divine life of the Holy Trinity. Thus, Grace transforms us and makes us Holy, which I alluded to earlier is what the Greek/Eastern tradition refers to as Theosis.
St. Paul in Ephesians speaks of the concept of “Theosis” where he states “who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, ‘to be holy and without blemish before him’” (c.f. Eph: 1:3-5). He writes “and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the Fullness of God” (c.f. Eph 3:19), and coming to “mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ” (c.f. Eph 4:13).
St. Paul in Chapter 6 of Romans takes up this theme here as well. In verses 1 to 4, he mentions Baptism then he states “For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection” (c.f. Rom 6:5). Later St. Paul writes about being “conformed to the image of his Son” (c.f. Rom 8:29), which Catholics and Orthodox believe happens at Baptism (going back to Romans 6) and restores what was loss before the fall when Man and Woman was created in the Image of God (c.f. Gen 1:26-27; Wisdom 2:23-24).
So Catholic Theology, and The Eastern Orthodox Theology, does not see us being saved by God covering us with Grace, while still seeing us as filthy and Depraved (One of Calvin’s 5 Points of TULIP). While we distorted our Image (Divine Image, as we were originally created in God’s Image) as a result of Adam and Eve’s Sin (Original Sin, i.e., The Fall), through Christ, God is going to not only restore our True Image, but through his Grace, bring us into communion with the Holy Trinity, which is Love itself, and thus partake in the Divine Nature.
St Paul further writes “that you should put away the old self of your former way of life, corrupted through deceitful desires, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth” (c.f. Eph 4:22-23). St Paul writes “to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God…Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect” (c.f. Rom 12-1-2). St Paul speaks of May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy an may you entirely, spirit, soul and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 1 Thes. 5:23) and why we are called which was “for obtaining the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 2 Thes 2:14).
In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul also talks about glory with respect to man as he writes “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him (c.f. Rom 8:16-17). St. John states whoever remains in God’s Love remains in God and God in Him. In this love brought to perfection among us we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world” (c.f. 1 John 4:16-17).
Finally, two other verses indicate “partaking of the Divine nature/Theosis” are 1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” and St. Paul’s letter to the Philippians where he states: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.” (c.f. Phil 3:21).
Anyway, hope this helps and pax et bonum
Hi CTrent,
I was raised a Catholic, but never took first Communion or Confirmation. I chose to be a Free Methodist. My wife is a former Catholic, however.
And I agree that both Catholic and Protestant doctrine calls for salvation by Grace. It is not by works, though works are an outward sign of our salvation and faith. We are not saved by baptism, or communion, or anything we can do other than profess our faith earnestly and honestly and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
One thing that I think you are a bit off in regards to is the “covering” of the Grace of God. It permeates us as it does Catholics; it is not just an external thing! In fact, it is very common saying that Jesus lives inside us, that we ask Him into our hearts. We are permeated with the Grace and love of Jesus.
Given that, the rest of what you write applies to Catholics and Protestants combined; I believe our differences are dogmatic, not doctrinal. And that’s as someone raised in both faiths, who lives with someone raised in both faiths (yes, we had a mixed marriage).
The reasons that Protestants are often dismissed by Catholics are over dogma - positions that are intrinsic to their particular denomination, and not foundational to salvation.
As I posted earlier in this thread, the Nicene Creed applies to all Protestants, with the understanding that the catholic church means the universal - not Roman/Eastern/Greek “Catholic” churches - and that apostolic means the teachings of the Apostles not the apostolic succession of the papacy.
Does all that mean I gotta wash behind my ears before church?