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To: Marysecretary
He left the Holy Spirit. HE is our rudder.

I agree with that statement in principle, BUT how does the Holy Spirit manifest itself? How are we to discern between what is from the Holy Spirit or what is from our own self-centered desires, or, for that matter, what is demonic?

If your claim was true, then all Protestants who sincerely seek out the Holy Spirit to guide their discernment of Scripture would ALL be in agreement in terms of doctrine, as the Bible could not simultaneously teach contradictory beliefs. And yet the reality is that there are literally THOUSANDS of Protestant sects and denominations, each of which claims to have the Bible as its only guide, each of which claims to be preaching the truth, yet each of which teaches something different from the others. Protestants claim that they differ only in non-essential or peripheral matters, but the fact is that they cannot even agree on major doctrinal issues such as the Eucharist, salvation, and justification--to name a few.

For instance, most Protestant denominations teach that Jesus Christ is only symbolically present in the Eucharist, while others (such as Lutherans and Episcopalians) believe that He is literally present, at least to some extent. Some denominations teach that once you are "saved" you can never lose your salvation, while others believe it is possible for a true Christian to sin gravely and cease being "saved." And some denominations teach that justification involves the Christian's being merely declared righteous, while others teach that the Christian must also grow in holiness and actually become righteous. Even the original "Reformers"--Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli--did not agree on doctrinal matters and labeled each other's teachings heretical.

Our Lord categorically never intended for His followers to be as fragmented, disunited and chaotic as the history of Protestantism has been since its very inception. Quite the contrary, He prayed for His followers: "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us." (John 17:21). And St. Paul exhorts Christians to doctrinal unity with the words, "One body and one Spirit...One Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. 4:4-5). How, then, can the thousands of Protestant denominations and sects all claim to be the "true Church" when their very existence refutes this claim? How can such heterodoxy and contradiction in doctrine be the unity for which Our Lord prayed?

In this regard, we should be reminded of Christ's own words: "For by the fruit the tree is known." (Matt. 12:33). By this standard, the historical testimony afforded by Protestantism demonstrates that the tree of Sola Scriptura is producing bad fruit.

But this problem of doctrinal incoherence is resolved if there is ONE, singular teaching authority to which Christians can appeal. And there is really no other Church other than the Catholic Church that can be Biblically and Apostolically linked to a teaching authority provided directly by Christ, to serve as the "pillar and ground of truth." If the Catholic Church does not have this authority, then there is no teaching authority -- and the idea that there is an absence of such Holy Spirit-guided authority fits neither with logic nor scripture.

God bless.
505 posted on 06/28/2009 10:25:10 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner
“BUT how does does the Holy Spirit manifest itself?

There's your first problem right there...the Holy Spirit isn't an itself...he's an Himself. He is a member of the Godhead, the Trinity.

“How are we to discern what is from the Holy Spirit or what is from our own from our own self-centered desires or, for that matter, what is demonic?”

Simple, The Holy Spirit will never speak of Himself, He was sent into this world to glorify Christ. If you're in a situation where Christ isn't being taught, praised, or glorified, then get out! Because the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it!

509 posted on 06/28/2009 10:44:45 PM PDT by Semper Mark (Third World trickle up poverty, will lead to cascading Third World tyranny.)
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To: bdeaner; Marysecretary
BUT how does the Holy Spirit manifest itself? How are we to discern between what is from the Holy Spirit or what is from our own self-centered desires, or, for that matter, what is demonic? I

The Holy Spirit is manifested through the word of God, which is the sword of the Spirit.

But this problem of doctrinal incoherence is resolved if there is ONE, singular teaching authority to which Christians can appeal.

There is no "doctrinal incoherence" in the Protestant faith. There are shadings of differences but NONE of them careen into the blasphemy Rome teaches.

A Christian's "one, singular teaching authority" is the holy Bible. Not a decrepit behemoth that directs men away from Christ and toward the stock of trees.

514 posted on 06/28/2009 11:08:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: bdeaner
"In this regard, we should be reminded of Christ's own words: "For by the fruit the tree is known." (Matt. 12:33). By this standard, the historical testimony afforded by Protestantism demonstrates that the tree of Sola Scriptura is producing bad fruit."

Matthew 13:

"24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

"But this problem of doctrinal incoherence is resolved if there is ONE, singular teaching authority to which Christians can appeal. And there is really no other Church other than the Catholic Church that can be Biblically and Apostolically linked to a teaching authority provided directly by Christ, to serve as the "pillar and ground of truth."

I spent some time last night reading about the history of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has had multiple Popes at one time, bitter fighting (with folks killed) between factions, Popes excommunicating Popes...its record as a single teaching authority is very spotty, to say the least.

564 posted on 06/29/2009 7:27:38 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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