bdeaner - this seems to be a side discussion to the main thread, since kosta50 wants to know how anyone can know anything about God or the world. He holds up logic, and asks for proofs. I tell him there are none, because God is revealed, not concluded.
He wants to know how someone can believe a revelation, since it is not logical. I’ve argued logic has limited value in understanding the world, and suggested some books for reading. By thinking rationally, I cannot get my body to walk across a room. Conscious thought doesn’t allow me to drive a car. The mind operates quite effectively in many areas without resorting to logic or conscious thought, and it seems foolish to me to assume that logic is the rule that we can submit belief in God to. In such a discussion, logic is inadequate.
I am, as I’ve told you before, a former electronic warfare officer. However, accident investigations required reading about how the mind works, and how we process information. One of the books I recommended, Deep Survival, uses accident investigations to bring life to discussions about how we think - both with logic, and with intuition and belief and emotion. If you don’t know how the mind works, then you cannot teach pilots how to avoid future accidents such as flying into mountains, or flying a good airplane out of fuel...and I say that as someone who has had an engine flame out while pulling off the runway!
I’ve also worked a little with automatic target recognition systems. A child, without thinking, can pick out a tank in the trees better than a computer can. That suggests intuition CAN be better than rational thought. That was known in WW2, when aircraft recognition was taught quite effectively as something done without thinking.
kosta50 - I used dogs because I know something about Border Collies, and because even learned men like yourself ought to know something of a Lab’s behavior. If behavior - complex behavior - is inheritable, then we should be cautious in trusting our powers of logic. If you knew more about Border Collies, you would know that top breeders breed for behavior, not looks or body. I used an anecdote to illustrate, not to prove. I’m not going to try to teach you about Border Collie breeding or trials - feel free to research it on your own.
There is a lot of research showing an interconnection between mind and body. In this, I’m more sympathetic to Catholics than most Baptists, since it suggests that physical rites are more important than a separation of mind and body would allow. If you think your mind operates independently of your body, you aren’t very bright. Hunger and weariness obviously affect out thinking. Why? Because our mind is part of our body.
How do I know about God? The Holy Spirit. Sorry that you don’t like that answer, but it is true. I pray you might someday learn the truth of it.
I'd disagree, or refine that. I'll agree and then disagree with Kosta here.
Rational thinking, the intellect can get your body to walk - it is a navigator. It is not, however, the captain. It doesn't determine why what you walk for is better than not walking. Rational thinking alone cannot give you the purpose in walking across the room. It cannot even give you your purpose to get up in the morning. Not reason alone.
Reason is conditional, each reason has a reason.. as far you wish to go, it can only lead to another reason, until it reaches an axiom or absolute truth statement or knowledge.
You can go on infinitely in each conditional statement - but you would still sit - with reason alone.
Reason, the conditional, must stand upon the absolute - to move, to have a purpose. And absolutes cannot be known by reason - by definition, they have no "because". If they did they would be conditional, not absolute, and still you would sit.
It's a sensible question considering that God is "beyond everything." As for the world, I never made such an inquiry.
He holds up logic, and asks for proofs. I tell him there are none, because God is revealed, not concluded.
Better logic then reflex or fancy gone wild. You will have to make up your mind about the revealed thing. You admitted, to my surprise, that faith is an a priori assumption, and now you are saying it's a 'revelation.'
He wants to know how someone can believe a revelation, since it is not logical.
No, you got that one wrong too. I want to know how can you believe a revelation without knowing what it is. As I said, it could be God, but it could be insanity or a brain tumor that's making you "see" and "hear" revelations. And if you do know what it is, how do you know what it is? I also asked you if you believe that "demons" cause diseases and you conveniently ignored that.
The mind operates quite effectively in many areas without resorting to logic or conscious thought
As in thoughtless and illogical behavior? How do you measure effectiveness of the mind in thoughless illogical mode?
it seems foolish to me to assume that logic is the rule that we can submit belief in God to. In such a discussion, logic is inadequate.
At least you practice what you preach. You say it seems foolish to assume that logic rules, but it is not foolish to assume the existence and knowledge of an inconceivable ontologically alien divine entity? Faith is an a priori assumption, remember? And based on that "logic" you conclude that logic is inadequate. Is that a fact?
I used dogs because I know something about Border Collies, and because even learned men like yourself ought to know something of a Lab’s behavior. If behavior - complex behavior - is inheritable, then we should be cautious in trusting our powers of logic
Inbreeding in humans does not result in specific behavior patterns. Identical twins separated shortly after birth develop different behavior patterns. Human behavior is not inbred; it is learned.
If you knew more about Border Collies, you would know that top breeders breed for behavior, not looks or body
And if you knew more about humans you'd know that what we are not Border Collies.
I used an anecdote to illustrate, not to prove. I’m not going to try to teach you about Border Collie breeding or trials - feel free to research it on your own.
You used an anecdote of innate dog behavior and assumed a paralle with humans where there is none.
If you think your mind operates independently of your body, you aren’t very bright. Hunger and weariness obviously affect out thinking. Why? Because our mind is part of our body.
You are still building your strawman. I never even suggested such a thing. Hunger and weariness affect our mind because our brain needs glucose to function, the way your car needs gasoline to run, and your electric fan needs electricity spin. You see, it's quite simple: no glucose, no brain activity, no mind.
How does this justify making an a priori presumptive leap of faith that there is God, that you know what God is, that you know how to "recognize" the ontologically unrecognizable, to detect the undetectable, to speak of characteristics of the invisible, etc? You have covered everything from Border Collies to unscientific claims about human behavior and your military service, but you have still not addressed these logical questions.
How do I know about God? The Holy Spirit.
Good. Now you can tell me how do you know it's the Holy Spirit?
Sorry that you don’t like that answer, but it is true.
Sorry that I don't "like the answer BUT IT IS TRUE?" I can understand why logic is such a low item on your repertoire. It's much easier to use a sledge hammer approach as "proof." When all else fails, we will just declare it true and that "proves" it.
I pray you might someday learn the truth of it.
Why? So that I may dispense with reason and let myself be guided by a priori assumptions?