You raise some key issues that may require a long reply so I ask for you kind patients.
But I will address one issue rather quickly though.
I'm not necessarily a Calvinist. And what I mean by that is I do not agree with all of the Calvinist doctrine that I've read. But, as far as the predestination and election teachings of Calvin are concerned, yes, those teachings are Biblical. I could be hung by my Independent Baptist brethren for making that claim.
The short answer to that is, is that there is a door that says Who soever will, and those that enter are the elect.
More later.
I'm not going to dump a lot of scripture on you, I'll ask that you search the Bible yourself for these truths.
When Adam fell he didn't just stumble, he fell completely out of the will of God, out of fellowship with God, and out of communion with God. Thus, the relationship between God and man was totally destroyed by sin. The Bible is clear, God cannot even look upon sin.
Man under the headship of Adam is now at enmity with God and under His judgment, condemnation, and wrath. Search from the Old Testament to the New Testament and you'll see this in plain sight. The Bible clearly shows man that he is sin from head to toe, and it describes us as sinners by nature and sinners by choice and totally corrupt. But thank God, in spite of this He still loves us and gave His Son to die for us. Christ loved us and gave Himself for us.
Justification (salvation) does not bring total eradication of sin, John and Paul both speak to this in their epistles.
Salvation makes us free to not sin, but not free from sin.
John, speaking to Christians, says that a man who says that he has no sin, or sin nature, is a liar and there is no truth in him. We are empowered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us resist the flesh, our carnal nature.
When we walk in the flesh rather than in the Spirit, we will always the proclivity for sin.
On the matter of righteousness. As you asked: It is simply a matter of God declaring one righteous, or imputing His righteousness to a man. “Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness.” The evidence of the change isn't outward, or outside, but an inner change through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
Even in his total depravity, God does leave man to his free will to choose, He's given us a who soever will salvation.
This is leading to the subject of predestination and election. Do the Scriptures teach predestination and election? Paul did in his epistles, Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5 and Eph 1:11. Who are the elect of God? The who soever will’s.
“Justification, according to Catholicism, is a true eradication of sin, a supernatural infusion of grace, and a renewal of the inner man.”
I have no idea how that differs from Protestant teaching on being born again. The old man dies, what is raised is a new creation. NEW. My body may be 51, but I’m 38...
“The Catholic Church holds that true faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works, without which spiritual growth is impossible.”
Protestants do not teach that intellectual assent will save you - after all, the demons have that much ‘faith’. But that isn’t the same as saying works complete the salvation.
If a cat was born again as a dog, it would behave as a dog, not a cat. A poor analogy, but someone born again as a son of God, or a slave who becomes a free man, or a rebel who surrenders to the King - they WILL behave differently.
A crude analogy, but here goes: When I adopted a son & daughter in the Philippines, they did not become my children because they acted like Americans and knew all my relatives. They spoke no English, and had to be taught to use forks, stand in lines, wear underwear...but they didn’t become my kids by speaking English, but by adoption. Had they died in a car crash 3 months later, they would have died as my kids. It was adoption that made them my children. The rest followed with time. And when their behavior is bad, they do not stop being my kids.
“There are inner changes in the person, so that sanctification is a process of being made actually holy, not merely legally declared so. This process begins at baptism, is facilitated by means of prayer, acts of charity and the aid of sacraments, and is consummated upon entrance to heaven and union with God.”
That is why we distinguish between justification (which is written about in the past tense) and sanctification (an ongoing process, done by God). We believe it starts at the new birth (and for Baptists, baptism follows). We believe God disciplines us, but doesn’t punish us - see any good dog training manual for the difference.
Where we seem to differ is that at death, we will be united with God. We do NOT go to Purgatory, for temporal punishment, whatever that is. Our ministry may be judged by fire, but we do not. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
Of course, we don’t believe in penances, either. If my wife says, “I forgive you, go sleep on the couch”, I don’t believe her forgiveness!
“Rather, the question is a matter of choosing between grace and faith alone or faith AND works.”
I would phrase it a bit differently. Based on Catholic teaching I’ve read here about Purgatory & penances and indulgences, I would say the Protestants believe works PROVE the faith, while Catholics believe the works have merit that gains them favor with God. Catholics seem to have a plus/minus accounting system. Thus, you can transfer merit gained by previous saints from the storehouse of merit.
“The Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints teaches that this work of cleansing or sanctification does not have to be done entirely by the person directly concerned, since all Christians, living and dead, are united as a single body that has Christ as head. The holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus through the communion of saints, recourse not only to the merits of the saints in heaven but above all to those of Christ himself lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
In view of the power of binding or loosing granted by Christ, the Church considers that it may administer to those under its jurisdiction the benefits of these merits in consideration of prayer or other pious works undertaken by the faithful. This the Church does for individual Christians, not simply to aid them, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
There is a common misconception that indulgences forgive sins; however, they only relieve the punishment due because of the sins. A person is still required to have their sins absolved by a priest to receive salvation.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
This is where we differ. Protestants do NOT believe in punishment for sins that have been forgiven, nor do we accept a plus/minus accounting system that allows us to transfer funds (merit) from one person to another. We reject utterly the idea that our good works generate bonus points with God, and that those bonus points can erase deficits we owe God.
“I read this as an endorsement of a view of justification in which there is an external, or forensic justification where righteousness is merely declared, or imputed by God to the sinner, who remains outwardly unchanged, at least in the beginning—which seems to imply the doctrine of total depravity.”
Justification occurs at the new birth. But Protestants seem far LESS inclined to think of external justification than Catholics. We have no plus/minus system, certainly not one that allows a church official to move merit from one person to another. Salvation isn’t a bank account.
I think CTrent1564 hit on the main difference, which you have allude to here: are we sick, or are we dead?
“I think the key point here, for Catholics, is that man always retains at least a small measure of free will to choose God and the good. This enables him—by the necessary assistance of God’s enabling and proceeding grace at every turn—to cooperate with god as He sanctifies and saves.”
16.4 Those who in their obedience [to God] attain the greatest height possible in this life, are still far from being able to perform works of supererogation (that is, to do more than God requires) since they fall short of much which, as their duty, they are required to do. [1]
1. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10 Luke 17:10
16.5 We cannot, even by our best works, merit pardon of sin or eternal life from the hand of God, for those works are out of all proportion to the glory to come. [1] Moreover, because of the infinite distance that is between us and God, our works can neither benefit God nor satisfy the debt of our former sins. When we have done all we can, we have only done our duty, and are still unprofitable servants. [2] Besides, if our works are good they originate from the Spirit, [3] and whatever we do is defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection that it cannot endure the severity of God’s judgment. [4]
1. Romans 8:18
2. Job 22:3 Job 35:7 Luke 17:10 Romans 4:3 Romans 11:3
3. Galatians 5:22-23
4. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10
16.6 Yet, although believers are accepted as individual people through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Christ. [1] It is not as though in this life they were entirely blameless and beyond censure in God’s sight, [2] but that he looks upon them in his Son, and is pleased to accept and reward what is sincere, even though it is accompanied by many weaknesses and imperfections. [3]
1. Exodus 28:38 Ephesians 1:6-7 1 Peter 2:5
2. 1 Kings 8:46 2 Chronicles 6:36 Psalms 130:3 Psalms 143:2 Proverbs 20:9 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Romans 3:9,23 Romans 7:14-15 Galatians 5:17 1 John 1:6-10
3. Hebrews 6:10 Matthew 25:21,23
16.7 As for works done by the unregenerate, even though in essence they may be things which God commands, and may be beneficial both to themselves and others, [1] yet they remain sinful works because they do not proceed from a heart purified by faith, [2] nor are they done in a right manner according to the Word, [3] nor is their purpose the glory of God. [4] Therefore such works cannot please God nor make a person acceptable to receive grace from God. [5] Yet the neglect of such works is even more sinful and displeasing to God. [6]
1. 1 Kings 21:27-29 2 Kings 10:30-31 Romans 2:14 Philippians 1:15-18
2. Genesis 4:5 with Hebrews 11:4-6 1 Timothy 1:5 Romans 14:23 Galatians 5:6
3. 1 Corinthians 13:3 Isaiah 1:12
4. Matthew 6:2,5-6 1 Corinthians 10:31
5. Romans 9:16 Titus 1:15 Titus 3:5
6. 1 Kings 21:27-29 2 Kings 10:30-31 Psalms 14:4 Psalms 36:3
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Good morning to both of you, I was going to write a response to Mr. Rogers post last night but bdeaner has written one that I would have been proud to write myself, and done it in a fair and charitable manner.
Anyway, I think bdeaner has accurately explaned the points we have in common, with respect to Justification [and there are many], and where we part ways on the questions of Justification and Sanctification.
pax et bonum