Replies

So what do you do with the fact that Revelation says there are 7 churches and their doctrines leaves 5 of them coming up short. Only two have the key to David, apparently a prerequisite to be that ‘church’ with sound doctrine.

John is talking about the seven churches in Asia that he is writing to about his apocalyptic vision. They are not THE CHURCH, but rather churches, or what today we'd call individual diocese, or arch-diocese, within which individual parishes ("churches") exist under a bishop. Also, they do not represent different "denominations," but all the same CHURCH (Capital "C"), under the See of Peter. Further, John is not making a prediction or prophecy about seven churches in the future -- these diocese are contemporary to his time.

AND that thief hanging upon that cross did NOT need a ‘church’ to be offered salvation.

I think the difficulty here is that you seem to be taking a contemporary, Protestant understanding of the term church and reading it into the Bible and past history. This is a meaning I think you are imposing on the text, rather than attempting to understand what the Scriptures themselves mean by Church. My last post was a fairly in-depth reading of the Biblical, New Testament meaning of Church, and many (if not all) of its analogies and implications. Perhaps you can take a look at that again, and let me know if you object to any of my exegesis and if so, why. it would help me if you could point to particular chapters and verse with reference what I stated in that email on the Church.

One of the most striking teachings of Christ, and especially St. Paul's teachings in his letters, is that the Church is Christ's Body. So, when the thief is told by Christ that He will be with Him in Paradise, the thief at that moment is already participating in the CHURCH because He is participating in Christ. Christ IS the Church. His people are the Church that compose His Body. When the thief has faith in Christ, he at that moment enters into the Church, and Christ recognizes this, so He is granted what the Catholic Church calls a "baptism of desire." The good thief is granted entrance into Heaven because he desires baptism, even if he did not ever literally participate in the sacrament of Baptism.

Now when does ‘church’ worship become the object of worship as replacement of the Heavenly Father and His Sent Savior?

Again, I think this is a misreading of the Biblical meaning of the term Church. The Church for Christ and his followers is not just a worship service on Sunday. It composes an entire body of believers and their entire lives and activities, not just in a building somewhere, but in their families, at work, and even at play. God is everywhere, and wherever His people go, that is the Church.

The Catholic Church does not call Sunday services a "church" or "worship" service, although worship is something that happens there. What happens is the Mass. The Mass is certainly an important part of the Church, but it is not all that the Church is -- nevertheless it is a very sacred time and place in which the people of the Lord's Church are fed Christ's Body and Blood in order to take Him back into the world. The word "Mass" actually has the meaning of a 'sending forth.' It is about taking Christ into our bodies and minds, and bringing Him to the rest of the world in our thoughts, actions, and words. Wherever that is happening, there is the Church.

The Catholic Mass -- which in all essential details is the exact same liturgy used by the early Christians at the time of the Apostles and thereafter -- is very different than a lot of Protestant "worship services" and is not understood in the same way. It can be difficult for many Protestants to grasp what the Mass is about. Heck, it is difficult enough for Catholics to understand what it is about! But nevertheless what happens at Mass is not the entire whole of the "Church"--it is an important part of course. Just not the whole. The Church is the Body of Christ operating materially in the world as an instrumental means for bringing grace to His people from now and until the end of time -- wherever and however that is happening. And no doubt that grace is flowing in many Protestant people, and also, sadly, not flowing in many Catholic people. It's not about being a denomination -- it's about being Christ's people, period. One, universal, united people under the one Truth of Christ's Body operating in the world, bringing His grace into the lives of all who are His adopted children. I believe this is the message revealed in Vatican II, infallibly.

That miracle that took place at the flesh death of our Savior says the ‘veil’ in the holy of holies was rent from top to bottom and no longer was it required to go through a flesh priest to have direct access to the Heavenly Father but through His Sent Savior.

I have an answer for this, but I have already gone on too long, and I need some coffee! I will get to this a little later.

Thanks for the discussion! I hope we both learn a lot from it. God bless.