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To: Quix; bdeaner

Doesn’t the bible say all men are sinners? That must mean they are fallible.

Isn’t the Catholic church full of men?


1,074 posted on 06/30/2009 7:27:11 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Certainly.

While they may note it when pressed on it . . .

Some sure seem to pontificate as though they are not!

But then that’s true in most denominations, if not all.


1,077 posted on 06/30/2009 7:32:49 PM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: driftdiver
Doesn’t the bible say all men are sinners? That must mean they are fallible.

Isn’t the Catholic church full of men?


Papal infallibility means that the pope, when pronouncing definitively and dogmatically on matters of faith and morals is protected from teaching errors. This protection comes from the Holy Spirit and was promised by Jesus Christ when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles to teach them all truth. The pope only enjoys this special protection when he is speaking in union with the other bishops (the successors of the Apostles) as the successor to Saint Peter (the leader of the Apostles).

This is what infallibility means, but there are many things which it does not mean, although a number of non-Catholics would like it to mean this – as these things are easy to argue against!

Firstly, infallibility is not the ability to always be right or know the correct answer to a matter of history, science or some academic discipline. Although the popes are generally very well-educated men their intellects are not perfect, and they are capable of having gaps in their knowledge or of making mistakes. Thus, if a pope were to say that two plus two is five this would not mean that, for Catholics, two plus two equals five. It would mean that the pope has to take some more math lessons! The pope is only infallible when he speaks on matters of faith or morals – he is not always right and the Holy Spirit does not “teach him all truth” when it comes to academic matters.

Secondly, infallibility is only conferred on papal pronouncements which are solemnly and dogmatically defined, and does not apply to remarks made by the pope as a private individual, or even as a priest, the bishop of Rome or the pope. Only when he speaks as the pope ex cathedra (literally “from the chair” - meaning that he is formally defining something as infallible) is infallibility invoked. Such instances are very rare indeed – far rarer than many non-Catholics think.

Thirdly, and most importantly, infallibility should not be confused with impeccability. Impeccability is best defined as being sinless, or never making a moral mistake – Jesus and Mary were impeccable, for example. As we read in Saint Paul's letter to the Romans, all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. We read in the Gospels how Peter himself sinned by denying Christ, and in Acts how he fell short of his own teaching regarding eating with gentiles and had to be rebuked by Paul. But infallibility and impeccability are not the same thing, and Jesus never promised that the pope would be impeccable. The number of times Jesus speaks of there being sinners in the Church (such as the tares among the wheat, or the bad fish in the catch) should be enough to make this clear.
1,080 posted on 06/30/2009 7:50:51 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: driftdiver

The Bible refers in a few places to the way all of Judea came to hear Christ.

Do you think there was no one in Judea who did not come to hear Christ on those occasions? Every single one came?


1,093 posted on 06/30/2009 8:14:51 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: driftdiver

Yep, ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary!


1,160 posted on 07/01/2009 7:15:44 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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