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No Salvation Outside the Church
Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner

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To: bdeaner
Just to give three examples: Baptists, Episcopalians, and Church of Latter Day Saints are about as far apart as you can get without rejecting Christ as our savior.

Mormons are far closer to you than to us...They have their own scriptures as you have your own tradition...They, like you, are the one true church...

I admit, I shouldn't say Protestant...I should say non-Catholic...The Episcos and Anglicans are Catholics without a pope...

941 posted on 06/30/2009 9:06:34 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: bdeaner; Markos33
For men to call themselves "another Christ" (alter Christus) is blasphemy. They need to cease and repent of it.

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." -- Mark 13:6

942 posted on 06/30/2009 9:18:20 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: bdeaner
Just to give three examples: Baptists, Episcopalians, and Church of Latter Day Saints are about as far apart as you can get without rejecting Christ as our savior. They are each individually closer to the Catholic Church in teaching than they are to each other, with perhaps the exception of LDS, which is frankly out to lunch.

Just about the ONLY thing that unites them, other than belief in Jesus Christ, is their rejection of the Catholic Church. That's really the one thing all PROTEST-ant sects have in common -- their PROTEST against the Mother Church established by Our Lord, the Catholic Church.

Ping for later

943 posted on 06/30/2009 9:19:55 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Luther's phrase "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love" - BXVI)
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To: Iscool
Your post serves to demonstrate my point.

Mormons are far closer to you than to us...

They are similar ONLY in that they also reject sola Scriptura. But they do not have true Apostolic succession and do not have the authority to protect and preserve the true Deposit of Faith. That's obvious. Any idiot can claim to have spoken with Jesus and write a book. But only one Church can claim legitimately to have Apostolic succession. Even if you disagree with the concept of Apostolic succession, one must at least admit that the Catholic Church is really the only body of believers that has any historical claim to it.

I admit, I shouldn't say Protestant...I should say non-Catholic...The Episcos and Anglicans are Catholics without a pope...

Says a lot.
944 posted on 06/30/2009 9:20:52 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
For men to call themselves "another Christ" (alter Christus) is blasphemy.

You don't even know what it means.

945 posted on 06/30/2009 9:22:14 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: papertyger

For you to rebuke that statement puts you outside orthodox Christianity. We are saved by Christ’s righteousness and not our own.


946 posted on 06/30/2009 9:35:09 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
He said "Believe in me and my righteousness; in the work I do on the cross for your sake."

Christ didn't say that. YOU did.

947 posted on 06/30/2009 9:40:22 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: driftdiver
Nope, I’ve looked. I don’t see the work Catholic in the Bible.

So you reject the Trinity too.

948 posted on 06/30/2009 9:41:06 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
For you to rebuke that statement puts you outside orthodox Christianity.

Rebuking your words puts one outside orthodox Christianity?

LOLROFLMTO

YOUR words?

LOL

949 posted on 06/30/2009 9:42:07 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: bdeaner; Markos33
RCs belabor the physical world because that seems to be all they know of God -- various rituals and rites and icons and trinkets and statues and "another Christ" in front of them "forgiving" their sins. Yes, God created everything good, and then our first father, Adam, fell, forever staining mankind with the blemish of that indelible disobedience.

It took the coming of our second father, Jesus Christ, to redeem us from that sin by standing in our place before God and taking on the punishment rightly due us so that we now stand acquitted before the eyes of God.

The RCC used to better understand original sin. Lately it seems the double speak has extended even to this basic Christian belief.

"Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit"

Is our body made from bricks and mortar? No, Paul is speaking of the spiritual body. We are spiritual beings and you want to remain carnal.

But the fact that we are spiritual beings most definitely effects our physical life on earth by the good fruits produced by the Holy Spirit within us. We are His children. We were created to mirror the joy of Christ in all things.

The Scriptures overwhelmingly support the Catholic position with regard to enacting physically our spiritual sanctification.

That sentence doesn't even make much sense. All you're doing is grasping at straws hoping to justify your pagan ritual of transubstantiation which is idolatry in God's eyes. Christ is in heaven, not being served up in temples made with hands. He made His sacrifice for His lost sheep and that one-time, completed sacrifice has been accepted by God and marked "paid-in-full."

"Spiritually" for St. Paul means acting genuinely from within rather than just externally

lol. How does a man "act genuinely?" How does a man perform righteousness if what is "within" him is rebellious by nature?

Answer: he must be born again, spiritually, by the free gift of the Holy Spirit, according to the will and purpose of God.

950 posted on 06/30/2009 9:54:24 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
For you to rebuke that statement puts you outside orthodox Christianity.

Since when is taking the name of the Lord in vain a measure of orthodox Christianity?

Jesus didn't say that: you did.

951 posted on 06/30/2009 9:59:43 AM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: bdeaner

The LDS do not believe in Jesus. They use the name, but they define Jesus in a way that denies everything that Christians believe. Jesus is not the brother of Satan, and we will not someday be Gods of our own little world...

It would take a long post to discuss...I lived in Utah for 6 years, and had many LONG talks with Mormons.


952 posted on 06/30/2009 10:02:56 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Answer: he must be born again, spiritually, by the free gift of the Holy Spirit, according to the will and purpose of God.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If I had a nickle for every "saved" person I know that has been set free of nothing but their guilt, I could have retired in my first year of "salvation."

953 posted on 06/30/2009 10:06:40 AM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: Mr Rogers; bdeaner

Let me add my voice to Mr. Rogers’. He knows what he’s talking about.


954 posted on 06/30/2009 10:08:36 AM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: bdeaner
Even if you disagree with the concept of Apostolic succession, one must at least admit that the Catholic Church is really the only body of believers that has any historical claim to it.

Not accurate at all...From the accounts of the scripture as well as the accounts of your Catholic history and non-Catholic history, there were many churches in the beginning...And these churches were far closer to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles than your church has ever been...

Your religion burned their scriptures, labled them as heretics and murdered a great many...

By looking at your current church and your church history, it's clear to very many that yours is the group that Jesus and the apostles warned us about...

Sure, your group has been there for a long time...

And you guys never mention your church split when half the bunch turned completely left and went with Rome and it Pagans with Constantine at the head...

955 posted on 06/30/2009 10:14:29 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: papertyger

“And the part YOU’RE missing is the bible isn’t comprehensive enough to be the “final authority.”

And yet, for hundreds of years, we’ve been content to settle - or at least discuss - issues using the Bible as our ultimate authority.

What non-scriptural excuses are you writing about?


956 posted on 06/30/2009 10:16:40 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger

“I’m familiar with the “once saved” doctrine. It’s unscriptural. “

If you will cite the scriptures it contradicts, I’ll be glad to discuss it with you.


957 posted on 06/30/2009 10:19:19 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger; Dr. Eckleburg

I’m copying, but folks put a lot of work into thinking this out, and I agree with them.

4.1 The grace of faith (by which the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls) is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts. It is normally brought into being by the ministry of the Word. It is increased and strengthened by the ministry of the Word, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord’s supper, prayer, and other means appointed by God.

14.3 This faith may differ in degree, and may be weak or strong, yet even at its weakest it is different in kind and nature (as is all saving grace) from the faith and common grace of temporary believers. Therefore, though it may be frequently attacked and weakened, it gains the victory, and develops in many until they attain full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.

Faith without works IS dead! Works without faith have no value in any way! Our salvation results in our becoming a new creation.

All of us - including Catholics - have seen impostors come into the ‘church’, who claim to have faith but who do not. I’ve known both Catholics and Baptists who never lost a chance to commit adultery, but I’ve never known a Christian who lived that way!


958 posted on 06/30/2009 10:28:58 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Iscool
there were many churches in the beginning...

Baloney. There isn't a single, solitary verse to support the idea any given city had more than one congregation of people calling themselves Christians.

That kind of duplicity is unconscionable.

959 posted on 06/30/2009 10:31:11 AM PDT by papertyger (A difference that makes no difference is no difference)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
All you're doing is grasping at straws hoping to justify your pagan ritual of transubstantiation...

Holy Eucharist is Christ's gift to us, partaking of it is His command. It is by definition Christian, not pagan.

...which is idolatry in God's eyes.

So says you. Christ commands it and you say it is idolatry--idolatry to worship Him!--in His eyes.

I'm going to have to go with what Christ teaches, not you.

960 posted on 06/30/2009 10:32:08 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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