No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[bdeaner]

Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that "extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.

Work Out Your Salvation

There are two distinct dimensions of Jesus Christ’s redemption. Objective redemption is what Jesus Christ has accomplished once for all in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension: the redemption of the whole universe. Yet the benefits of that redemption have to be applied unceasingly to Christ’s members throughout their lives. This is subjective redemption. If the benefits of Christ’s redemption are not applied to individuals, they have no share in his objective redemption. Redemption in an individual is an ongoing process. "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling; for God is at work in you" (Phil. 2:12–13).

How does Jesus Christ work out his redemption in individuals? Through his mystical body. When I was a Protestant, I (like Protestants in general) believed that the phrase "mystical body of Christ" was essentially a metaphor. For Catholics, the phrase is literal truth.

Here’s why: To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense "the divine fruits of the Redemption" (Mystici Corporis 31).

The Church: His Body

What is this mystical body? The true Church of Jesus Christ, not some invisible reality composed of true believers, as the Reformers insisted. In the first public proclamation of the gospel by Peter at Pentecost, he did not invite his listeners to simply align themselves spiritually with other true believers. He summoned them into a society, the Church, which Christ had established. Only by answering that call could they be rescued from the "crooked generation" (Acts 2:40) to which they belonged and be saved.

Paul, at the time of his conversion, had never seen Jesus. Yet recall how Jesus identified himself with his Church when he spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus: "Why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, emphasis added) and "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5). Years later, writing to Timothy, Paul ruefully admitted that he had persecuted Jesus by persecuting his Church. He expressed gratitude for Christ appointing him an apostle, "though I formerly b.asphemed and persecuted and insulted him" (1 Tim. 1:13).

The Second Vatican Council says that the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church and the mystical body of Christ "form one complex reality that comes together from a human and a divine element" (Lumen Gentium 8). The Church is "the fullness of him [Christ] who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:23). Now that Jesus has accomplished objective redemption, the "plan of mystery hidden for ages in God" is "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Eph. 3:9–10).

According to John Paul II, in order to properly understand the Church’s teaching about its role in Christ’s scheme of salvation, two truths must be held together: "the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity" and "the necessity of the Church for salvation" (Redemptoris Missio 18). John Paul taught us that the Church is "the seed, sign, and instrument" of God’s kingdom and referred several times to Vatican II’s designation of the Catholic Church as the "universal sacrament of salvation":

"The Church is the sacrament of salvation for all humankind, and her activity is not limited only to those who accept her message" (RM 20).

"Christ won the Church for himself at the price of his own blood and made the Church his co-worker in the salvation of the world. . . . He carries out his mission through her" (RM 9).

In an address to the plenary assembly of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (January 28, 2000), John Paul stated, "The Lord Jesus . . . established his Church as a saving reality: as his body, through which he himself accomplishes salvation in history." He then quoted Vatican II’s teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation.

In 2000 the CDF issued Dominus Iesus, a response to widespread attempts to dilute the Church’s teaching about our Lord and about itself. The English subtitle is itself significant: "On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." It simply means that Jesus Christ and his Church are indivisible. He is universal Savior who always works through his Church:

The only Savior . . . constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: He himself is in the Church and the Church is in him. . . . Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord (DI 18).

Indeed, Christ and the Church "constitute a single ‘whole Christ’" (DI 16). In Christ, God has made known his will that "the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity" (DI 22). The Catholic Church, therefore, "has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being" (DI 20).

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it—though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries. Recall John Paul’s words about the Church quoted above: "Her activity is not limited only to those who accept its message."

Not of this Fold

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, "I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:15–17). The word translated as "tend" (poimaine) means "to direct" or "to superintend"—in other words, "to govern." So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.

People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR



Fr. Ray Ryland, a convert and former Episcopal priest, holds a Ph.D. in theology from Marquette University and is a contributing editor to This Rock. He writes from Steubenville, Ohio, where he lives with his wife, Ruth.

[WVKayaker]

Please cite the Scriptural requirements for the "deacon". I am familiar with what Paul had to say. Do you disagree with Paul?

I am a Deacon, myself. The church tested me and found me acceptable before God. They laid hands on me, asked God's Blessings on me, and asked God to use me as He wills. I know what the Scriptures say, what does your church say?

Phillip IMMEDIATELY left after the baptism...

1 Timothy 3: 1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Wives? Paul makes it clear that only men with wives should be within the leadership of Christ's only church. The only time he wrote to Rome was to warn them about their addiction to the Law, and how he explains the truth about freedom in Christ.

He is risen. He is not on a silver cross around your necks! He is not found in earthly temples of stone adorned with gold trappings...

-nope, no gilt graven images there...

[MarkBsnr]

***You even got that wrong...I wasn’t talking about a loafer***

A loafer? You think that in AD 33 they had loafers? What else? IPods? GPS? Emails? How about space shuttles?

[Titanites]

Please cite the Scriptural requirements for the "deacon".

Cite them yourself. I'm not on the payroll to do research for you.

Do you disagree with Paul?

Nope.

I am a Deacon, myself. The church tested me and found me acceptable before God. They laid hands on me, asked God's Blessings on me, and asked God to use me as He wills.

Good for you.

I know what the Scriptures say, what does your church say?

Here's the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Help yourself.

Paul makes it clear that only men with wives should be within the leadership of Christ's only church.

That's your interpretation of Paul. But your interpretations don't really interest me.

He is risen. He is not on a silver cross around your necks!

I only have one neck. And no, the last time I checked, He wasn't on a silver cross around my neck.

He is not found in earthly temples of stone adorned with gold trappings...

I not interested in hearing about your restricted god. My God is found every where.

-nope, no gilt graven images there...

Thanks for the beautiful pic. You need to look a little closer; there are lots of graven images.

And the point of your post was?

[WVKayaker]

Why bother posting to someone that hasn't any desire to learn? It is clear that these Roman Catholics are convinced, in spite of clear evidence to the contrary, of a special club of their own. It is easier to join their church and leave the driving to them! If the church is your salvation, then make sure you tithe and keep your nose clean. If their Mom and Dad were/are Roman Catholic, it's good enough for them.

What they seem to miss is the clear message from Genesis to Revelation. They claim to be the authors and/or keepers of those, you know. Yet, they consistently ignore the message of redemption found in all Scripture. Partaking their bread and wine tokens every week are a substitute for living according to the Spirit of God. Their priests tells them so.

These guys are just playing with you. Their responses are nothing but rephrased questions,and accusations. I will post Scripture, and leave it up to Him...

Let God arise and His enemies be scattered!

Galatians 2: 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

He is risen!

[WVKayaker]

And the point of your post was?

As a demonstration of your hypocracy...

Luke 16: 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

****** ***********

1 Corinthians 5: 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

**** *******

Romans 3: 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

[Titanites]

As a demonstration of your hypocracy

Why don't you first point out my "hypocracy" so I can understand what you are talking about.

[Mr Rogers]

Cherry picking scripture does not make a Scriptural argument.

I’d be curious to where you believe Calvin cherry-picked scripture. I don’t agree with him on all I’ve read, but I’ve seen no indication that he was cherry-picking to make scripture match his wants.

I’ve studied LDS beliefs. They do NOT use scripture, except out of context!

[WVKayaker]

As a demonstration of your hypocracy

It's perfectly clear. If you don't understand it, don't expect me to explain it...

[Titanites]

It's perfectly clear. If you don't understand it, don't expect me to explain it...

I didn't ask you to explain it. I asked you to point to it. Which sentence in which post?

[Mr Rogers]

I will say this in your defense - ‘churches’ like this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2289546/posts

have severe doctrinal differences with me, and I with them! However, Scripture would be enough to correct it, IF they believed scripture meant anything.

[MarkBsnr]

***All men who have not been in contact with the Church are lost. -mark

What about Saul of Tarsus? His conversion started on a dusty road and was completed in someone’s home. Paul was not in contact with a “Christian”.***

Sure he was. He was confirmed as a bishop in the Church in Acts 9.

***Jesus says nothing about worshiping in a church... ever! He does tell us our source of salvation...***

Jesus created His Church in Matthew 16:
13
8 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

and has numerous references to it throughout the Gospels. Paul, too, refers to the Church e.g. 1 Tim 3: in which he describes the characters required of bishops and deacons. If not a Church, what do you think that these positions are supposed to be for? 1 Tim 5:
17
3 Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
18
For the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing,” and, “A worker deserves his pay.”
19
Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.
20
Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid.
21
I charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these rules without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism.
22
Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.

What do you think that the presbyters and Timothy himself are? They are office holders in the Church.

***...and lastly, you post a long tirade about the Ethiopian eunuch. Phillip baptized him and he went off down the road rejoicing, and never saw Phillip again! Phillip gave him an introduction, and the Holy Spirit took over from there.***

The eunuch was instructed by a consecrated deacon of the Church. That was enough for the moment. The Great Commission would have had other Church evangelizers head to Ethiopia (as in fact they did).

[MarkBsnr]

***Cherry picking scripture does not make a Scriptural argument.***

Then we need to discard all Reformation theology on the spot.

***I’d be curious to where you believe Calvin cherry-picked scripture. ***

Take the Institutes and tally up the proofs. I have done this with the Westminster Confession of Faith previously. Look at them and look at what is missing. The Sermons are missing. Matthew is almost entirely ignored, e.g.

The proofs are Pauline primarily and OT secondarily. Christ is either ignored or appealed to only in a second or third sense.

***I don’t agree with him on all I’ve read, but I’ve seen no indication that he was cherry-picking to make scripture match his wants.***

Do a small study. Pick one of his essays and see for yourself. It will do more to influence you than anything I can post. Or start easily with the WCF. That way you and I can do a direct comparison.

***I’ve studied LDS beliefs. They do NOT use scripture, except out of context!***

BINGO!!!!!!! That is that I have been trying to make. Out of context and cherry picked. Who decides that it is out of context, though? Hint: 2000 years of history...

[MarkBsnr]

*** will say this in your defense - ‘churches’ like this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2289546/posts

have severe doctrinal differences with me, and I with them! However, Scripture would be enough to correct it, IF they believed scripture meant anything.***

Scripture is not enough. I thought that you had touched on that in your last post. If Scripture can be taken out of context, then it by itself is insufficient.

[MarkBsnr]

***These guys are just playing with you. Their responses are nothing but rephrased questions,and accusations. I will post Scripture, and leave it up to Him... ***

Try the Gospels and read the read of the NT through their prism. The Word of God is Jesus; I cannot figure out why so many Protestants prefer Paul and the OT over Jesus.

By the way, the wheel in front of the tomb is historically incorrect.

[WVKayaker]

By the way, the wheel in front of the tomb is historically incorrect.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church is not THE church. The church proscribed by Jesus in the Gospels is the "ecclisia". The term comes from the Greek.

Greek, ekklesia: "gathering of those summoned")
In ancient Greece, the assembly of citizens in a city-state. The Athenian Ecclesia already existed in the 7th century; under Solon it consisted of all male citizens age 18 and older. It controlled policy, including the right to hear appeals in the public court, elect archons, and confer special privileges. After discussion, members voted by a show of hands; a simple majority determined the results. The body could not initiate new business, since motions had to originate in the boule. Ecclesias existed in most Greek city-states through Roman times, though their powers faded under the empire.

I didn't see anything in there about a bunch of robed pretenders, proudly displaying their wealth... and worshiping idols.

John 14: 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." -The Gospel Truth!

... and, from Paul's letter to the Christian "ecclisia" at Rome:

Romans 4: 13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

[Titanites]

The church proscribed by Jesus in the Gospels is the "ecclisia". The term comes from the Greek.

You do understand the meaning of the word "proscribed", don't you?

[WVKayaker]

Actually, I don't know that is a word. My intended word was PRESCRIBED, but my spell checker didn't catch it.

Please enlighten us.

[MarkBsnr]

***You do understand the meaning of the word “proscribed”, don’t you?***

Now, now. Just because some of the folks that oppose us are unacquainted with things like book larnin’ doesn’t mean that their Scriptural understanding is equally dismal.

I think that the man speaks truer than he might let on.

[MarkBsnr]

***By the way, the wheel in front of the tomb is historically incorrect.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church is not THE church.***

Fascinating methodology. A factual and historical item is presented and is countered by an incorrect and hysterically inaccurate one. Without any proofs, of course.

***The church proscribed by Jesus in the Gospels is the “ecclisia”. The term comes from the Greek.

Greek, ekklesia: “gathering of those summoned”)
In ancient Greece, the assembly of citizens in a city-state. The Athenian Ecclesia already existed in the 7th century***

Interesting. So the height of the Athenian civilization coincided with the rise of Mohammed. I was just reading a short story by H. Beam Piper last night that touched on alternative realities and different timelines. Would you be able to tell us which timeline that you occupy so that we can debate with some foundation?

***I didn’t see anything in there about a bunch of robed pretenders, proudly displaying their wealth... and worshiping idols.***

So you do not kneel before God? Deuteronomy 9:
25
“Those forty days, then, and forty nights, I lay prostrate before the LORD, because he had threatened to destroy you.

You do not lay prostrate before the Almighty? You do not kneel? How can a man say that he believes in the Lord if he does not show the the respect that the God of All deserves? I knelt before God this morning and asked forgiveness for my sins. I have been in many Protestant churches. I do not see the people humbling themselves before God. I see the opposite. I see that here as well. I see variations on “I know that I’m a million times as humble as thou art” smugly paraded on the screen.

***... and, from Paul’s letter to the Christian “ecclisia” at Rome:***

Still addicted to a false interpretation of Paul?

[WVKayaker]

hypocrite: see markbsnr; Roman CAtholic Church

Mark 12: 38As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." - Gospel truth!