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To: Blogger

I’m not the one who posted the ahistorical (that means false) garbage in 513.


533 posted on 06/29/2009 1:23:13 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
Please see Papal bulls "Quantum praedecessores" from 1145, "Post Miserabile" from 1185, "Audita tremendi" from 1187, and "Quia maior" from 1213.

Each called for a Crusade (the second, in general, the third, and the fifth crusade). Each was a Papal bull - a decree from the Pope.

To deny that Popes called for some of the Crusades is, in fact, to deny the history of the Catholic Church and deny the authority of the Pope (both personhood and position) who issued those same bulls.

534 posted on 06/29/2009 1:41:54 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Petronski; Cronos

...he granted partial indulgences for material contributions to crusading

http://books.google.com/books?id=uNMeHnVOevkC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=indulgences+crusades+fund&source=bl&ots=jgetdqaQJD&sig=ECuLunWACNgpYbpHk-lcdNTPASI&hl=en&ei=VXlJSrXKO4riNfu2jZcB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

In 1453 the Turks finally sacked Constantinople, news of which terrified European leaders. Pope Nicholas V tried to organise a crusade to recover the city, but it was yet another failure. Pope Callistus III did manage to organise one, funded by the sale of indulgences, but it was diverted and finished up attacking Genoa.
http://www.christianityandhumanrights.com/_moslems.html

Kings and catholic princes who took from funds were promised indulgences if it a part was given for the Crusades or for the building of St Peter’s Basilica.
http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/jub/JUBmean2.html

At the peace congress of Bruges, negotiations took place between French and English delegates. Also, Papal delegates discussed with the English delegates the dispute between their king and the pope. Wycliffe was among the men that signed a decree against the tributes to the Pope and the continued “sale of indulgences”. A sale of indulgences was a promise that anyone who funded or fought in the Pope’s wars and crusades would be absolved of all of their sins and get a free trip to heaven.
http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=john_wycliffe

Pope Urban VI therefore conceived of the idea of launching a crusade against the French, with the goal of freeing Flanders from French control and allowing the Flemish to return to their allegiance to Rome. Hence Urban issued a series of papal bulls to promote such a crusade, and in particular to encourage England, as the natural enemy of France to participate.

By one such bull Pope Urban “granted to the king and to his uncles a plain dime to be taken and levied throughout all England, so that Sir Henry Spenser, bishop of Norwich, should be chief captain of all the men of war” with the instruction “to make war against all those that held with pope Clement.” By another he authorised the bishop to sell indulgences to raise further cash to fund the crusade. As one source noted “the bishop had wonderful indulgences ... granted to him for the said crusade by Pope Urban VI” which enabled the bishop to promise absolution for “both the living and the dead on whose behalf a sufficient contribution was made”.
http://everything2.com/title/Crusade%2520of%2520the%2520Bishop%2520of%2520Norwich

See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TKaPrQPFIAMC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=pope+taxed+crusades&source=bl&ots=4E06toiOs_&sig=3YmTrPEVSXW2ieMGH8HVRICyBBE&hl=en&ei=0XpJSofcEYWANsmxrJcB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Even the “Complete Idiots Guide To the Crusades” says
“By levying a tax for the crusade, the pope placed the burden of financing a holy war on the people...”
http://books.google.com/books?id=0Ku-O2JITi0C&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=popes+funded+cursades&source=bl&ots=Czi4lUPKBU&sig=br7V-DKgY5VBc9q8E7JJOnp7AeA&hl=en&ei=kY5JSuSfKofIMbjowbMC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

So, did the Pope’s finance the crusades? Out of their own pockets, no. But by manipulating and taxing the people, yes. Did the Pope sell indulgences? Yes, he did. He sold them with the blasphemous promise that by fighting the holy war forgiveness was theirs. Popes also sold them for funds for the wars.

About those nobles, as has been stated, the relationship between church and state was so strong that they were practically indistinguishable most of the time. A pope could make things very good for a noble or destroy him. To think that the nobility went on a holy war out of personal piety is the epitome of ignorance. They did it for loot, of course, but also because to do so would somehow get them in the good graces of the Pope - whose patronage they needed for all of their second son’s careers. Ever hear of simony? Ever hear of pluralism? That’s how things worked in the Middle Ages unfortunately and it spurred a reformation.

Having answered your insults directed towards me I am again done with this conversation. Please don’t ping me to this thread again. Our country is going to Hell in a handbasket and I don’t have the time to devote to arguing history with you all.


555 posted on 06/29/2009 9:13:19 PM PDT by Blogger
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