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To: Dutchboy88

I probably won’t access the Internet till tomorrow. Good night.


342 posted on 07/07/2009 5:25:33 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg

To keep the discussion on track, I restate the question in front of us...“What does the Bible say the point is of all of the requirements to act holy and righteous, if men are not free?”, that is, “What is the Gospel getting at?”

I noted we are going to see enormous, cavernous differences between our views...as different as our view on “free will”. I then tried to represent your perspective on this, not to set up a straw man, but to assure you that I am aware of your understanding.

Now, to my view...

The Scriptures tells a story much different than that which first appears on the surface. Not mystically different, but actually different. In the same way you noted that God surely knew where Adam was in the garden when He asked, “Adam where are you?”, the Scriptures tell us a story that lays ever so slightly below the surface. Many folks (Unitarians, Mormons, etc.) would argue, “God doesn’t know everything, since it says right here in black and white He didn’t know where Adam was!” We would respond, well, it does say that, but keep reading...you will find a very different story as you go further.

So, what is the different story we claim that the Scriptures tell? God is the manager of all minutae of the universe, bringing the climax of all activity to rightly glorify Himself. He is transcendent, sovereign and holy. He is righteous and worthy of all reverence and praise.

Man, on the other hand, is broken, sinful and desparately rebellious. This is his inherent nature. While he should love righteousness, holiness and godliness, he doesn’t and cannot because his nature is incapable of this requirement. Thus, the requirements found in the Scriptures are set in front of him like a mirror. The so-called “10 commandments” are really part of a larger Law given to Israel to put them on stage and demonstrate just how broken mankind really is. No matter what benefits, blessings, favors are extended to them, they cannot rise to goodness. They are all men. While Israel had the Law, the rest of us Gentiles had our consciences to prove the same fact. We are dead in our trespasses and sin. And, this state of failure and rebellion has left all men under the wrath of God, worthy of eternal death. Such failure left all men hopeless, helpless.

In ages past, before the foundation of the world, God determined to rescue some individual men from this tragic situation. Part of the perspective He held was that the problem of rebellion and sin was so large that no man was suitable to solve it for themselves and certainly not for anyone else. Thus, He concurrently determined that He, Himself, would have to solve the problem. He determined that His only Son would become a man, fulfill the Law perfectly and become the unblemished Lamb provided by God. Thus, He sent the One that is both the Just and the Justifier. The One Who set the standards, fulfilled them, and earned the right to be a sacrifice for all whom He would rescue. The great majority of what Jesus “taught” during His stay on earth was, “Here is what the Law says you Jews should do. Now do it or...” Then He did for us what we could not do for ourselves.

When He had accomplished this sacrifice He brought Himself back from the dead to prove His power over death and sin. He then applied this to all who had been chosen by Him in the past (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc.) both well known and nameless millions around the world. These had not known how He would solve their problem (Abraham), but they all knew from the revelation of the Spirit that they had a problem of rebellion, evil, and helplessness before a holy God. This is faith...a trust that God can forgive me and make me righteous.

Then, as people were born, He added them to His family of faith. Paul, Timothy, John, etc. Both well known at the time of Christ and millions of nameless around the world since then that share this same perspective. The Holy Spirit revealing to them that the requirements for holiness are beyond their reach; they are dead in sins and trespasses. There is no hope unless God reaches for them. Toe-tag dead (like Lazarus) and raised only by the operation of God. Monergistic, not synergistic. Here is the great difference of our views.

The Law and requirements, as Paul writes to Timothy, are not for rescued people, but for evil people to see how bad they are, if they are allowed to see. The rescued people have a renewed heart, and cling to Christ to continuously wash them before God. They know that they still do not deserve fellowship with God, they still do not have any personal righteousness, but they view all righteousness ascribed to their account as being a cloak of Christ’s righteousness, not theirs.

The “church” is simply the common name used in Koine Greek for the “gathering” the “assembly” of all believers in the world of all time. If you trust him for righteousness, seeing nothing in yourself of merit, and I share this same view, then we are brothers in Christ, both in the “church”. There is no central headquarters, except in Him, seated in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit administers this fellowship to encourages us to set aside the deeds of the flesh and take on the characteristics of Christ. But, no ceremony, no sacraments, no other person but the Spirit can make this happen.

So, the “requirements” remind us of our failure, they do not give us a pattern for living. The Spirit leads us into all truth, not the organization. The organizations are often hinderances to us understanding this, since they routinely place themselves ahead of Christ in our daily lives. Should I gather with other believers to learn from the Scriptures, pray and fellowship? Yes, of course. Is this somehow a requirement? No, there are no “requirements” that add righteousness.

Everything is an expression of what God is managing inside of me (Work out your own salvation for it is God at work in you BOTH to WILL and to DO His good pleasure. Phil. 2:11) So, should I sin all the more that grace can abound? Absolutely not...that just caused me grief in the past, so why add to the trouble? But, as I see these things arise in my life, I should cling to God and recognized they are really the product of God working in me.

There, you can see just how great the differences are in our answers.


343 posted on 07/08/2009 10:17:03 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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