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To: Dutchboy88
I said the passage you quote from the Bible contradicts your statements.

Romans 8:30 does? How? The passage does not say that the elect have nothing to do now that God predestined them. The Catholic understanding is that He predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies those who respond to grace in righteousness; they "search in their hearts knowing what the Spirit desireth". Where is the contradiction?

Can you explain how they could have freely chosen good, if God must first grant them repentance in order for them to recognize their error?

To repent means to have a change of heart (or of mind). It is true that God grants the ability to repent; often even asks directly for repentance, but repentance is impossible without free movement of the will for sorrow over the sin and converson toward the good.

277 posted on 06/30/2009 5:24:01 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Okay, patience. “The Catholic understanding is that He predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies those who respond to grace in righteousness” This is a patently false understanding. Read the passage again. He foreknows, He predestines, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies. None of this is because you, “...respond to grace in righteousness”

Notice the backward treatment. You claim Catholics believe that He predestines those who respond. You cannot wait until a person responds, then wind the clock back and predestine them before they responded. The response has already occurred. Your statement requires the person respond first, then the predestination occurs. This is backward to what the Scripture claims God orders. Does that make sense?

And notice that you don’t admit that the passage of II Tim. requires God to act first (grant) in order for repentance to occur. You make it either a simultaneous act or a granting that occurs if the person decides to repent. But, that is clearly not what the passage states. God must grant it first, then they repent. The order here is critical to understanding Paul’s argument. Again, I am not concerned about what the Vatican “believes” about this, but what Paul believes about this.


278 posted on 06/30/2009 5:36:11 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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