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To: Dutchboy88

God knows the choices people make freely. This is not illogical and conforms to the Bible entirely. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example, chose their deviance and Abraham chose righteousness. God punished Sodom and rewarded Abraham, but He did not make their decisions for them. The very meaning of the hospitality of Abraham’s episode, for example, is that God accepted the hospitality offered Him by Abraham, rather than simply helping himself to Abraham’s refrigerator.

Several things are also true:

- God leads his elect to both accepting his grace and deserving their final justification. His leadership, however, depends on their free choice, that is foreknown to God: “whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Rm 8:30).

- The choice that the free will accomplishes is not made in a vacuum, but rather in the environment where both God and satan have their (vastly different) roles. God speaks through His Church and his prophets and strengthens our will though the Sacraments of the church; satan tempts; we choose.

What is any of this is illogical or unbiblical, and where, exactly, am I “trash talking”?


271 posted on 06/30/2009 1:59:31 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Your statements are nonsequitor, but you continue to make them as if the sheer weight of repetitiveness will persuade. This is trash talk. You state “His leadership, however, depends on their free choice, that is foreknown to God: “whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Rm 8:30).” If you cannot read this to contradict everything you have said previously, we need to form a “Reading lessons Fund”.

Abraham was justified by faith, not by “choosing righteousness”. This is a basic understanding of the Gospel every reader of the letter to the Romans has, if they read the entire argument Paul sets forth. And, therein lies the problem. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't read the entire arguments presented; instead is at bottom a promoter of the “reward” system of salvation. They have inculcated their constituency into a merit program that is directly at odds with the free gift of salvation administered by Christ, through His Holy Spirit to those whom he chooses.

Acts 13:48, “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” This is the Gospel.

Read the latest on the return of “indulgences”. It is classic Catholicism. You will pay your bill either by doing adequate confession here, coupled with penance, OR you will pay the final bill during an interim holdover in purgatory. By "buying indulgences" you may shorten the stay in purgatory. This is all “reward”. This is not by “...grace through faith, that is a gift.” as the Apostle Paul taught.

And, it shames the "once for all" sacrifice of Jesus. Your arguments are a patchwork quilt of work for salvation “doctrines” taught by an authoritarian group of control freaks. They have a “party line” to which you adhere, but cannot support by statements from the Scripture. So they quote other members of the club.

Please set out the passages which state: God doesn't control man's heart or mind, He does not choose whom He will rescue, He does not affect the outcome of history.

272 posted on 06/30/2009 2:56:31 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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