History Channel Announces "Global Event" For May 25th...

http://www.lookupfellowship.com/2009/05/history-channel-announces-global-event.html ^ | May 14th, 2009

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[Lee N. Field]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Inigo Montoya on Youtube (Embed doesn't seem to want to work.)

[marbren]

This was fascinating. It puts Replacement Theology, Zionism, Israel and Dispensationalism in clearer context. Israel is the Key to understanding end time events.

[raynearhood]

Ok, here we go again. This will be the fifth time I've tried to send this reply. The poor connection and worse location has been the bane of my attempts to reply with long replies full of html. So, here it goes: How does a bound Satan influence it, or cause mohamed to fall into a trance and recite "satanic" verses?

I've never seen any Scripture that would lead me to believe Satan was bound at the cross or at Pentecost

I believe that the misunderstanding begins with what seems to be your interpretation of what it means for Satan to be bound. If I may refer to another reply from a different member:

the_Watchman - “If this is the Millennium, then the chain is too long!” This is a reference to Rev 20:3. My version reads: “... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years shall be fulfilled.”

Ahem, first of all, what a statement from Missler, eh? If this is the Millennium then the chain is too long? If this is the Millennium then who is Missler to question God's Sovereignty and purpose? If God's will is to allow people to their sin while saving some from "all the world," who is Missler to question God? [**aside - Watchman. Sorry, I wasn't avoiding your reply. I was inundated with replies and honestly thought I was at least answering you in part. Alas, I was replying to other members with similar replies. Hope this reply to wmfights at least partially answers your reply. Again, sorry.**]

OK, the dispensational error, as I see it, with reference to the binding of Satan is the interpretation that the binding is complete, i.e. that Satan can act no more. Well, this leads to a whole slew of misunderstandings, so allow me to clear it up. Noone believes that Satan is completely unable to act, in fact, neither the Scripture in question, nor the Scripture in general lend to such an interpretation. No, what we believe is that Satan is bound and that his binding is what keeps him from deceiving "the nations" - that it, end of story. The Scripture in question:

Revelation 20:1-3
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

The passage quantifies his binding to being unable to deceive the nations any longer. Topcat54 does a good job at explaining this:

It is a spiritual binding for spiritual purposes; "so as to not deceive the nations". It is because Satan was bound at the cross that the gospel can go freely into all the world.

As theologian Cornelis Venema explains:

Considering the biblical story of the history of redemption, significant change from the old covenant to the new becomes evident in terms of the nations of the earth. Whereas in the old covenant, the Lord called Abraham from Ur of Chaldees and dealt primarily with the nation of Israel, in the new covenant the gospel is being preached in the whole world (Matt. 24:14) and the nations are being discipled (Luke 24:47, Matt. 28:16-20). This difference in covenant administration does not affect the substance of the covenant of grace — the Lord who created the heavens and earth and all peoples, already in the first promise to Abraham spoke of the blessing that would come to all the peoples and nations — but it does affect the way in which the good news is being preached to all the nations of the earth.

Compared to the extension of the kingdom of God in this present age, prior to the coming of Christ in the fullness of time the nations of the earth remained predominantly under the deception of Satan. Though the Lord’s dealings with Israel were never narrowly ethnic, they were restricted in ways that, in the present age, are no longer true. Those who are members of the new covenant church of Jesus Christ are apt to forget the greater richness of saving blessing that has been poured out upon the nations of the earth in these last days. The light of the gospel that has shone among the nations of the earth in the present age contrasts vividly with the darkness in which the nations dwelt during the period of the old covenant.

As for passages dealing with the binding of Satan read Matt 12:26-29, Matt 28:18, Luke 10:9-19 (especially 19), John 12:31-32 (v.31 speaks of Satan being cast out when Jesus is crucified). Now, consider this statement:

If it is a standard rule of thumb in reading the Bible that Scripture should interpret Scripture and that the more obscure passage should be interpreted in the light of the more clear passage, the conclusion that best fits this evidence is: the vision of Satan’s binding in Revelation 20, so that he is no longer capable of deceiving the nations, is a representation of the events coinciding with the coming of Christ in the fullness of time. Christ has come and won a decisive victory over the evil one. This victory is variously revealed to us in the Gospels and throughout the New Testament. With his victory over Satan’s temptations in the wilderness, his declaration and exhibition of the power of the kingdom in casting out demons and plundering the enemy’s stronghold, his vanquishing of sin and death upon the cross, his resurrection from the dead, his ascension to the Father’s right hand, and his pouring out of the Spirit of Pentecost — in this entire complex of Christ’s saving work he has won a decisive victory over Satan. No longer is Satan able to deceive the nations. The promise of Psalm 2, that the nations will be given by God the Father to his Son as his rightful inheritance, is being fulfilled (verses 7-9).

[wmfights]

I've had my "Christian credentials" questioned by a number of dispies (not just on the web, but old friends in "real life," too) because I am no longer a dispensationalist. It isn't peripheral to them, somehow believing in the "futurist" interpretation of Scripture is central to the faith. I must adhere or I am rejected.

Sorry to hear it. FWIW, it's not something I agree with and have encountered that same type of treatment from amill folks at FR.

I'll have to ping you if I'm able to flesh out my thought better about amill churches being characteristically rigid and exclusionary. I know the RCC fits that description, but I'm not sure about the Presbyterian and other denominations that are amill.

[wmfights]

...(v.31 speaks of Satan being cast out when Jesus is crucified).

If it is a standard rule of thumb in reading the Bible that Scripture should interpret Scripture and that the more obscure passage should be interpreted in the light of the more clear passage,

John 12:31 should also be seen in context with John 14:30.

I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me.

Satan has a hold on those in a fallen state. Jesus was sinless. Satan could have no hold on him and all believers are protected by Jesus' blood sacrifice.

John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

If I read John 12:31 in context with John 14:30 it seems straight forward that the prince of this world is being driven out from being able to grab hold of believers and the world (non believers) will suffer judgment.

Another passage that further fleshes this out is:

Eph. 2:1-2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

IOW, Satan is not bound he is active in non believers. It is believers he can't devour.

[raynearhood]

Sorry to hear it. FWIW, it's not something I agree with and have encountered that same type of treatment from amill folks at FR.

I'm not doubting you, but I have been fairly heavily involved in the eschatology argument here and I've never seen that from any amil adherent wrt eschatology. Maybe calling out a heresy or a fallacy where one exists, but never wrt to eschatology. Please give an example, I'd like to talk with the offender.

I'll have to ping you if I'm able to flesh out my thought better about amill churches being characteristically rigid and exclusionary. I know the RCC fits that description,

Catholics are not amil. They may have a system similar to amil eschatology, but it's not classic amil.

Presbyterian and other denominations that are amill.

Denominations are not amil. I hold to amil eschatology with post-mil leanings. Some of the members of my church hold to post mil exclusively. Presbyterians are similar if not the same. Covenant theology is not necessarily amil, post mil, or pre-mil. It is, however, decidedly not dispensational.

[raynearhood]

IOW, Satan is not bound he is active in non believers. It is believers he can't devour.

**Thud, thud, thud** (beating head against table). John 12:31 in full context reads:

Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

34The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" 35So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36"While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light " These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"

39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,

40"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

So, your interpretation that "it seems straight forward that the prince of this world is being driven out from being able to grab hold of believers and the world (non believers) will suffer judgment" doesn't hold water because the Scripture plainly shows that Jesus was telling unbelievers that the time for Satan to be driven out was now.

Although I agree that the prince of this world has no hold on the believer that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Under the Old Covenant God dealt directly with one nation. He made one nation holy and kept one nation for Himself. The rest of the world was deceived. Satan had the power to deceive all nations save Israel. Though they often were disobedient as a nation they remained holy. God had a grip on them, they knew the One Holy God. Satan could not change that. God was active in Israel according to His good purpose and will and was inactive in all other nations, allowing them to be deceived by the fallen one. Satan no longer has that power to deceive all nations. God is active in people from the whole world according to His good purpose and will. He "expanded His scope" and no longer allows entire nations to be decieved by Satan. Satan is bound.

Is Satan still active? Yes. Does he still deceive? Of course. I've never denied that. Can he deceive all nations but one? No, he is bound and cannot do so.

[topcat54]

IOW, Satan is not bound he is active in non believers.

Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

[raynearhood]

I had meant to ask the same question.

[the_Watchman]

I am aware of no Biblical passages which would indicate that Satan is omnipresent. However, his minions certainly seem to cover a lot of territory.

[topcat54]

I am aware of no Biblical passages which would indicate that Satan is omnipresent. However, his minions certainly seem to cover a lot of territory.

Yet some folks seem to think and teach that Satan is the unholy version of the Holy Spirit, personally indwelling every unbeliever.

They give Satan too much credit for the evil in the world. Evil comes from the heart of man. Men are evil be nature. They do not need to personal prompting of Satan to do the evil they do.

Satan has been bound from deceiving the nations so that the gospel can go forward. He does not have the power that he had prior to the cross.

26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (Matt. 12)

The house of the “strong man”, the world, is being plundered by Jesus Christ. His kingdom is advancing and a vast multitude is being called into it. That is the age in which we live.