Posted on 04/22/2009 12:10:00 PM PDT by Colofornian
(Hey I posted on Satan as “God” of this World thread today...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2235157/posts..
...you’re going to at least have to call me Mr. Double Issue now :)
Apples and Oranges this is why I find having a discussion with you anti just an endless mission to jumping from one issue to another.
I really don’t care if the anti’s have issues with Polygamy there was religion freedom and than the law was enacted not the other way around!
It was a revelation and which could not be with drawn until the Lord give the manifesto.
These are hard things to understand for all but that is what is it is nothing more.
The LDS does not use the Lord religion as a weapon as I have witness here how many use the Bible as weapon which the Lord never intend his word to be used.
There are times the Lord hid things from the world but never to
use Ceremony to condemn the United States it is not the way the Lord works.
Those ceremony are all about returning back to the Father in Heaven and has nothing to do with corporal government.
When man keeps the Lord commandments than those who rule the country will be a blessing.
But this has nothing to do with what goes on in the House of the Lord.
Even in the Bible the Lord has council his children how to walk upon the earth so man isn’t living under tyrants.
There is more work to be done so this topsy-turvy of government we have today can be made right side up!
All of us should strive to live closer to the Lord and to do His will by keeping the Lord’s commandments.
Nope, you claimed that mormons follow the laws of the land. Polygamy was illegal from day 1 and even forbidden by the laws of mormonism - yet smith felt he could flaunt the law.
The LDS does not use the Lord religion as a weapon as I have witness here how many use the Bible as weapon which the Lord never intend his word to be used.
Do I need to cite your prophets who show your statement to be blatantly wrong Resty?
No it was not illigal it was enacted in 1862!
An Introductory Dictionary of Theology and Religious Studies - Google Books Resultby Orlando O. Espín, James B. Nickoloff - 2007 - Religion - 1521 pages
... polygyny, the practice of multiple wives rather than multiple husbands). ... The first federal legislation against polygamy was enacted in 1862, ...
Smith started practicing it in Illinois
"Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred." Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99
Doctrine and Covenants Section 101, Verse 4 (1835 edition)
"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband; except that in the event of death when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, vol. 2, pg. 247)
The 1862 federal Morrill Act was not the first law which made bigamy illegal; it was merely the first law which specifically reinforced existing state anti-bigamy laws. It was enacted specifically to close the "loophole" that the Mormons mistakenly believed they were operating under.
Even after the passage of the 1862 Morrill Act, the Mormon Church continued to practice polygamy in violation of the law for another half-century, and repeately challenged those laws. So anyone who argues that "The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy when it was made illegal" are either misinformed or misrepresenting the truth.
“The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy when it was made illegal” ...
Wrong it ended when the Lord’s Prophet received a revelation too not until, if it was that simple to end, it would have been done years ago and not endure all that heat!
My, my. Any other "loving" thoughts from you?
And you work wonders as far as taking things out of context. The Jews' comment was only about Pharisees. And I didn't say anything different than what Jesus said to them in the latter part of John 8. Be careful of the ground you walk on when by implication you start accusing Jesus Christ of "spewing hatred."
NIV sub-heading: The Children of the Devil (Jesus said) 41You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8:41-47)
II, your ignorance isn't invincible, it's frankly overwhelmingly pathetic.
...until you can post something that doesn't charge some other group of people as being under the influence of the devil...
I don't apologize for mentioning what an apostle of the Lord uttered: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)
But if you want to explain all this world's darkness in other ways, I've got a listening ear.
Did answer that question too bad you missed it!
So, sorry, too, Resty.
Els, did you catch Resty's response on why Presbyterianism is untrue?
[And Resty, could you let the rest of us in as to why Presbyterianism is untrue? -- just do a cut & paste from your earlier response]
Resty, please be careful when you say "never happened". The 1990 Endowment changes were not the first changes to the Temple Ceremonies.
Zakeet, what you are referring to is called the "Oath of Vengeance", it is more about avenging the blood of Joseph Smith than overthrowing the US government, but there is an element that the entire US was guilty for JS's murder. It was removed in the 1930's so while Mitt did not take the oath, his Grandfather probably did.
Oath of Vengance:
... Brigham raised his hand and said, "I swear by the eternal Heavens that I have unsheathed my sword, and I will never return it until the blood of the Prophet Joseph and Hyrum, and those who were slain in Missouri, is avenged. This whole nation is guilty of shedding their blood, by assenting to the deed, and holding its peace." ... Furthermore, every one who had passed through their endowments, in the Temple, were placed under the most sacred obligations to avenge the blood of the Prophet, whenever an opportunity offered, and to teach their children to do the same, thus making the entire Mormon people sworn and avowed enemies of the American nation (The Confessions of John D. Lee, p.160).
About 4:30 p.m. this meeting adjourned and was followed by a meeting of Presidents Woodruff, Cannon and Smith and Bros. Lyman and Grant.... In speaking of the recent examination before Judge Anderson Father said that he understood when he had his endowments in Nauvoo that he took an oath against the murderers of the Prophet Joseph as well as other prophets, and if he had ever met any of those who had taken a hand in that massacre he would undoubtedly have attempted to avenge the blood of the martyrs ("Daily Journal of Abraham H. Cannon," December 6, 1889, pp.205-206).
Elder Kimball showed the right fashion for a leaf, spoke of Elder Richards being protected at Carthage Jail, having on the robe, while Joseph and Hyrum and Elder Taylor were shot to pieces, said the Twelve would have to leave shortly, for a charge of treason would be brought against them for swearing us to avenge the blood of the anointed ones, and some one would reveal it and we shall have to part some say between sundown and dark.…and I have covenanted, and never will rest nor my posterity after me until those men who killed Joseph and Hyrum have been wiped out of the earth. (Journal of William Clayton).
Increase McGee Van Dusen, who later left the LDS stated: “We are required to kneel at this altar, where we have an oath administered to the effect, that we will, from this time henceforth and forever, use our influence to murder this nation, and teach it to our posterity and all that we have influence over, in return for their killing the Prophet Joseph. They say the murdering of Smith is a national offense. It is true that all was not personally engaged in the act; but the nation has long winked at the abuse of the Mormons, and in this way they have encouraged mobs from time to time, until they have finally taken the life of the Lord's Prophet, and now it is the will of the Lord, that the nation should be destroyed; and this is his will, that we shall enter into this secret conspiracy against the Government, &c., for the above reasons and many more given.”
Richard K. Fox wrote “We were then made to swear to avenge the death of Joseph Smith, the martyr, together with that of his brother, Hiram, on this American Nation, and that we would teach our children and children’s children to do so. The penalty for this grip and oath was disembowelment (Mysteries of Mormonsim). The attitude of many LDS at the time shows antagonism toward the United States:
Heber C. Kimball wrote: “James Buchanan now occupies the chair of state. He and his counsellors, his coadjutors, his cabinet, and Congress have met and planned the destruction of this people—of brother Brigham and his associates in particular; and the priests of the day say amen to it; and they exhort the people to say amen to it; and the whole people of the United States are under condemnation. They consented to the death of Joseph, Hyrum, David, Parley, and lots of men, women, and children. (Journal of Discourses, Vol 5, page 253).
“The order of God's church and kingdom is the strongest government ever known on this earth, and if the people of this great nation entertain any fears of the consequence or effects of such a government, why, I ask, don't you of the nation, you of Congress, you of the Cabinet, if you please, embrace this order of government and establish it over the nation! You can do it. You can repent of your sins, every one of you, and be baptized for a remission of them. You can adopt and extend this strong government which God has established in these mountains, and if you will do it, God will establish you and the government and this nation never to depart from before His face; and you shall be made the means of helping to bring everlasting righteousness—the millen[n]ium—upon this land, and of causing the Spirit of God to rest down upon all flesh. Is it not worth your while to engage in a thing of this kind? But, ah! The terrible fact exists that the blood of the prophets is upon this nation, although the nation has not shed their blood, yet a sovereign state permitted it, and the nation have not washed their hands from it. (Apostle F.D Richards, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 26, page 345).
Apostle Orson Hyde wrote the following: “The blood of Joseph and Hyrum was shed—mingled too with the blood of brother Taylor, who survived, and who is here a living witness to the facts that occurred in connection with their death. Has the nation atoned for that blood? No. Have they offered to do it? They never have. But if one poor scamp should happen to be killed in this country, in this region, the whole of the United States are ready to fly to arms to avenge the blood of that individual, that never was worth the powder and lead to kill him. But the Prophets of God that are inspired of the Almighty to do a work for the benefit of the human family can be killed, and no man lay it to heart. Oh, it is all very well: to be sure, it was an outrageous deed to murder them when they were in the hands of the law—when they were held as prisoners; it was a horrid act: at the same time, we are glad it is done. That is the feeling, and the universal feeling almost throughout the United States. There was hardly a man, woman, or child that did not assent to the death of Joseph and Hyrum, but objected to the way in which it was done. "It is not exactly honourable or pleasing, but we are glad of it anyhow." That is the sentiment of the nation, and by that very sentiment they have drawn upon themselves the anger of God; and that blood has to be atoned for, and it has to be atoned for upon all those that have said, We are glad of it!—that have secretly said so and cherished that idea. It will extend to them all who have consented to the death of the Prophet of God. Now, says the Lord, "To him that overcometh will I give power over the nations." Did Joseph Smith overcome, even unto death? Yes. Was God with him? Yes, he was. When they were about to cut off his head, behold, the power of the Almighty came down, and the men stood as it were like marble statues: they could not move, but stood there like Lot's wife—not pillars of salt, but pillars of petrified corruption. The power of the Almighty came down with the vivid glare of lightning's flash, and they had no power to take his head off. Was God with him? Yes. Was his death glorious? Yes. What was his glory? One portion of it is—"To him that overcometh will I give power over the nations." A portion of his honour and glory will be to enforce his word and see it take effect among the people and nation that have said, We are glad that he is killed! They cannot avoid it by going through death. They will have to be arraigned under the government and jurisdiction of their murdered victims. (Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, p. 154)
I never intend to winter in the United States except on a visit. We do not owe this country a single sermon. We calculated to go all the while, for I do not intend to stay in such an Hell of a Hole and if this be your mind, signify it by saying Hie--which was loudly responded to by the assembly--they are continually accusing us of stealing their horses and cattle. I wish some of the brethren would steal and kill them. (On the Mormon Frontier: The Diary of Hosea Stout, 1844-1861, Vol. 1, p73).
Article of Faith
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Now you say the continued Polygamy after the law was passed because the Lord had not given the go ahead to end it yet and suffered due to that.
So exactly what good is article 12 again, and why are we supposed to be impressed with that as an answer to anything since the LDS did/does not follow it?
Oath of vengeance ping.
(Hey I posted on Satan as “God” of this World thread today...
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I thought ADAM was god of this world, at least according to BY.
WOW...
the Mormon Temple Ceremony used to condemn the United States for allowing persecution of Mormons in Missouri in 1838 — and called for the overthrow of the United States government.
Anybody know if this is correct?
Nana: It was correct in SLC in 1854...
________________________________________________
On Friday, February 10, 1854, pursuant to notice I had received, with no other instructions than to wear a clean shirt, myself and wife went to the Council House, Salt Lake City, at about seven o’clock in the morning. About thirty persons were previously waiting there, who were to be “endowed from on high” that day. Our names, with full particulars of birth, marriage, etc., were all registered in a record; our tithing-ofice receipts examined, because, before hearing the music, it is first’ necessary to “pay the piper.” All those who had not been previously “sealed” to their wives, were then sealed by Heber C. Kimball, who has under his peculiar direction the giving of the endowment, and we were nshered into a long room which was divided into many little compartments by white screens.
.................................................
Man and woman, we were ranged around the place; Kimball in the same, and Brigham in the next room looking on; Parley Pratt officiating, and the fourth oath was administered. The allegory presumed that man, now in a fair and certain way to salvation, had a great temporal duty to perform, not an “abstract theory” of obedience, nor obedience in “abstract things”, but a great positive, present, immediate duty.
We were, therefore,
“SWORN TO CHERISH CONSTANT ENMITY AGAINST THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT for not avenging the death of Smith, or righting the persecutions of the Saints; TO DO ALL WE COULD TOWARD DESTROYING, TEARING DOWN, OR OVERTURNING THAT GOVERNMENT; to endeavor to baffle its designs and frustrate its intentions; to renounce all allegiance and refuse all submission. If unable to do any thing ourselves toward the accomplishment of these objects, to teach it to our children from the nursery; impress it upon them from the death-bed; entail it upon them as a legacy. To make it the one leading idea and sacred duty of their lives; so that “the kingdom of God and his Christ” (the Mormon Church and its priesthood) “might subdue all other kingdoms and fill the whole earth.” “
Curses the most frightful, penalties the most barbarous, were threatened and combined in the obligation either on failing to abide or in daring to reveal these covenants. A new sign, a new key-word, a new grip, and the second degree of Melchisedec priesthood was administered.
We were now acceptable to God, and could approach him as children, but had to learn how to pray. We were now told that our robes were on the wrong shoulder and as a sign of our entire dependence on the priesthood in spiritual things, they set them right. In order to impart a deeper religious tone to these proceedings, and to feed the flame here kindled, a new method of praying was shown to us. All the endowees were to stand in a circle; silently to repeat all the signs with their formula, and then to be united by a fantastic intertwining of hands and arms. While in this position one who is previously chosen to be “mouth-piece,” kneels on his right knee, takes hold of the hand of one of the standing brethren, thus completing the “4 circle,” and prays slowly; all repeating his words after him.
Thus to meet in circle, to solemnize our thoughts by assuming the garb, to refresh our memories and realize our obligations by repeating all the formula of sign, token, keywords and penalties; and then to pray standing in a mysterious position, using abracadabratic terms, is thought to call down from heaven an immediate answer to prayer, because, finding peculiar favor in the eyes of God. These circles meet every week, and Brigham and the Twelve Apostles often meet every day in this manner and for this object. Standing thus, Parley P. Pratt prayed, and we slowly repeated his words, calling on God to bless or curse as we obeyed or neglected the covenants we had made.
We were now brethren, members of the holy ot,’r3 of God’s priesthood; admitted to the full participation in the privileges of the fraternity; recognizing ealch other readily; constantly wearing a garment as a protector and remembrancer; bound to each other by tremendous secrets; chained to the priesthood by fearful oaths.
..............................................
From first to last, the intention of the mystery is to teach unlimited obedience to Brigham, and TREASON AGAINST THE COUNTRY. However infatuated, they all’see this plainly; and the stronger their infatuation, the prompter their obedience. To many strange extremes do they carry this obedience.
(Hyde, John, (1833-1875) Mormonism: its leaders and designs, (1857) Pp 90, 97, 98, 101)
(John Hyde was an Apostle in one of the “Seventies” in SLC )
“The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy when it was made illegal” ...
Wrong it ended
_________________________________________
Wrong it never ended...
The mormon fundamentalists still practice polygamy...
Only the mainstream mormons in SLC dont practice it because they will lose their lands, and property, and their tax exemption..
The fundie mormons honor and obey Joey Smith and the eternal mormon docrine, D&C 132..
“Hugh Hewitt, a political pundit radio personality, wants the Mormon presidential election runner Mitt Romney in the Whitehouse—very badly.”
Why? If we want statist liberalism, Chairman Maobama can provide it better than any RINO.
Polygamy was illegal from day 1 and even forbidden by the laws of mormonism - yet smith felt he could flaunt the law.
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Tennesse nana posted the following on another thread, by common law polygamy was illegal before the federal legislation of 1862:
Bigamy was recognized as an offense by the early English ecclesiastical courts, which considered it an affront to the marriage Sacrament. Parliament enacted a statute in 1604 that made bigamy a felony cognizable in the English common law courts. After American independence, the states adopted antibigamy laws, but they received little attention until the nineteenth century in Utah.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/plural_marriage/Legislation_EOM.htm
“Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred.”
Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99
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