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To: DouglasKC

***I would say, rather, that the worship of Christ and the practice of Christianity necessarily is different than Jewish worship practices.

Surely. Judaism is a religion that rejects Christ and attempts to gain righteousness through adherence to law. While a good idea, they’re doomed to failure because it’s impossible to live up to a Godly standard with the indwelling of God’s spirit.***

You mean ‘without’, surely.

Jews are still looking for the Messiah; they reject Jesus specifically.

***I am and if you’re a Christian under new covenant you had better be too because the new covenant is only for the children of Israel and Judah.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: **

Remember who Paul is speaking to. The Jewish converts and that is how he is writing. What does Paul say about the more general Church? Gal 3:
23
15 Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed.
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Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian 16 for Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
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But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian.
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For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus.
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18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
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There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The point is here that God has extended His promises to the entire world, not just the Jewish people in the new covenant given by Jesus.

***But you embrace the OT practices which the NT Church of Jesus Christ has set aside.

I embrace the practices that the original disciples, the first Christians, embraced. Modern Christianity has “evolved” these practices away.***

It is not for the individual to say what Christianity is; it is the prerogative and authority of the Church. I’m not sure who you are tagging ‘Modern Christian’ or what you mean by evolution of practices.

***Biblically a Judaizer is one that wishes Christians to practice Jewish law; let’s be accurate.

To be accurate the religion of Judaism didn’t exist when the Lord’s holy days were instituted. The first holy day, the sabbath of the Lord, was created long before Abraham was born. ***

Your point does not address mine whatsoever. Paul railed against the Judaizers many times, including 2 Co 11; in Gal 2, he says that:1
1 2 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
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I went up in accord with a revelation, 3 and I presented to them the gospel that I preach to the Gentiles—but privately to those of repute—so that I might not be running, or have run, in vain.
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Moreover, not even 4 Titus, who was with me, although he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised,
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but because of the false brothers 5 secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, that they might enslave us—
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to them we did not submit even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel 6 might remain intact for you.
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But from those who were reputed to be important (what they once were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those of repute made me add nothing.
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7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter to the circumcised,
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for the one who worked in Peter for an apostolate to the circumcised worked also in me for the Gentiles,
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and when they recognized the grace bestowed upon me, James and Cephas and John, 8 who were reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas their right hands in partnership, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
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Only, we were to be mindful of the poor, 9 which is the very thing I was eager to do.
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10 11 And when Kephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong.
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For, until some people came from James, 12 he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to draw back and separated himself, because he was afraid of the circumcised.
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And the rest of the Jews 13 (also) acted hypocritically along with him, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
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But when I saw that they were not on the right road in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Kephas in front of all, “If you, though a Jew, are living like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” 14

Verse 13 specifically means those Jews who were just playing at being Christians.

Peter puts things to rest very quickly, though. Acts 15:
1
1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” 2
2
Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.
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They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
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When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them.
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But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”
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3 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
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4 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
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And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
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He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
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Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
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On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 5

This is the turning point, where the Church diverged from Jewish customs and practices and began its own.

***If you wish to worship the Lord on any day of the week, that does not make you non Christian; where are you headed with this train of thought?

Many seem to characterize those who obey the Lord and honor his holy days as Judaizers. ***

Many agree with the Church definition of what a Judaizer actually is.

***I’m going to bet that my ideas of heresy differ greatly from yours.***

My personal definition of heresy is as meaningless as the personal theologies of, say, Origen towards the end of his life. It is what the Church declares as heresy that is all important.


249 posted on 04/12/2009 6:03:39 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Remember who Paul is speaking to. The Jewish converts and that is how he is writing. What does Paul say about the more general Church? Gal 3:

According to the bible, the only "new covenant" is the one mentioned here. It's a reiteration of the promise of the new covenant given in Jeremiah:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The last verse is a promise of the indwelling holy spirit. It is the Lord, the perfect expression of God's law, indwelling in Christians.

This is so fundamental that the Lord caused it to be recorded in the old testament and the new.

As Paul explains, Gentiles have access to this covenant by being grafted into Israel:

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Paul is describing how gentiles have been grafted into Israel. He compares cultivated olive trees, Israel, which God cultivated and groomed, to wild olive trees, gentiles. He says that branches from gentiles can be grafted onto the cultivated trees of Israel through Christ.

He brings up the same point in Ephesians:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Again, the covenants and the commonwealth were and are Israels. God brought gentiles into these promises through Christ.

I can keep going. There's many other scriptures to support the Lords ideas here. But bottom line, yes anyone who IS a Christian IS a child of Israel.

252 posted on 04/12/2009 8:22:52 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: MarkBsnr; Syncro
***I’m going to bet that my ideas of heresy differ greatly from yours.*** My personal definition of heresy is as meaningless as the personal theologies of, say, Origen towards the end of his life. It is what the Church declares as heresy that is all important.

We can examine scripture to see what how Paul answered heresy charges leveled at him by his church.

Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul, a 1st century Christian, the minister to the gentiles, the TEACHER of the gentiles, BELIEVED all things written in the law and the prophets.

Paul understood that Judaism at the time, like most of Christianity today, teaches non-biblical tradition and ideas as doctrine and truth. Paul's defense is to say that HE believes what is written in the only scripture he had, the books of the old testament, the law and the prophets.

The answer against heresy, no matter who defines it or what year it is, is to believe what is written in scripture.

253 posted on 04/12/2009 8:32:32 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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