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To: Alamo-Girl
And atheists often believe that "reality" is only that which physically exists, i.e. is measurable or observable.

You won't get an argument from me : )

We consider philosophy, structures, mathematics, universals/forms etc. and above all these, Logos which is a Name of God.

Yes, let me pick the assumptions and I can logically prove anything : ) Or better yet, let me pick the parameters and I can predict anything : )

Alas, the cat is dead to our sensory perception and we shall bury him.

Schrodinger and Einstein tried their best to disprove QM, but even Schrodinger's kittens couldn't do it.

Even so, Everett believes the cat may yet be alive in his many-world cosmology. The quantum superposition continues, it did not actually collapse. In a parallel universe, you did not read this post and instead went to cash in your Power-ball ticket.

Even the many worlds theory agrees that the wave function collapses. The other universe just had a different result.

An appeal to the properties of wave functions does not settle the debate about the observer, certainty/uncertainty, superposition etc.

Hmm, you are mixing apples and oranges. Certainly the observer in effect helps determine the outcome, but the observer doesn't change the basic principles by the observation.

737 posted on 06/13/2009 2:02:32 PM PDT by LeGrande (I once heard a smart man say that you canÂ’t reason someone out of something that they didnÂ’t reaso)
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To: LeGrande; betty boop; xzins; TXnMA; MHGinTN
Even the many worlds theory agrees that the wave function collapses. The other universe just had a different result.

Actually the dispute continues as to whether the wave function collapse is a physical phenomenon or whether it is just an epiphenomenon.

Certainly the observer in effect helps determine the outcome, but the observer doesn't change the basic principles by the observation.

What you mean by "basic principles" is not self-evident.

If you mean an observation by an observer "in" space/time cannot change the structure of space/time, physical laws and constants - I'd say that is probably true.

If you mean an observation by an observer "in" space/time cannot change the world (collapse a wave function whether actual or epiphenomenal) - I'd say that is probably not true.

Of course, there are a few scientists and philosophers who believe the observer's observation creates "reality" per se. To me that is taking the view that "a tree falling in the forest does not make a sound if no one is there to hear it" to an extreme.

Besides I disagree, the falling tree does make a sound even if no one is there to hear it. And I point to the sound waves in the cosmic microwave background radiation as evidence that sound occurred at the moment light (photons) came into existence even though there was no one "in" space/time to hear it.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

To God be the glory!

755 posted on 06/14/2009 7:54:09 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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