Posted on 04/04/2009 3:29:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
This is a distressing new Gallup poll. It shows that churchgoing Catholics are far more likely to approve of moral behavior (sex between unmarried people, homosexuality, etc.) that their church deems immoral than are churchgoing Protestants.
This is a conundrum to me, one I thought about a lot when I was a Catholic, and troubled over. Why is it that Catholics have a Pope and a Magisterium -- a clear teaching authority -- as well as a complex, coherent and profoundly intellectual moral theology ... and yet these things, which ought to give it a tremendous advantage in maintaining the obedience of its flock, avail the Catholic Church little? It shouldn't be that way, logically, but it is in practice.
Lee Podles, an orthodox Catholic, has some thoughts.
[I wish I didn't have to say this, but I do: this is not an anti-Catholic post, but rather intended to spark discussion on various reasons why this poll found the things it did. As someone who would like to raise my children to believe in what my faith teaches, I'd like to know what works, and what doesn't. Anybody who tries to derail the thread by making specious claims of anti-Catholicism will find their posts unpublished. So don't even start.]
Radical? Yes, but I beleive something radical is called for.
I am just speaking of my personal experience and observations.
“Actually, these members of Congress are excommunicated until they confess their sins.” I have heard for decades the complaints of faithful Catholics about the leaders of the pro-abortion movement, from Tip O’Neal to Nancy Pelosi, being given communion at their churches and kept on the membership rolls.
I endorse the Catholics’ position on abortion. I just think it would be more effective if it were enforced.
Certainly liberal Protestants have feminist abortionist pastors. But at least they are consistent. It is their official belief that abortion is a noble and wonderful thing.
If the Catholic church opposes abortion, it should not allows vocally pro-abortion leaders to take communion. I know they can’t peek under every doctor’s door to see who secretly aborts. But these “Catholics” like the open “Catholics for Free Choice,” should not be allowed communion. When the laity sees that this behavior is not disciplined, it creates a lax mindset in them. The church errs in this.
If there is a vocal pro-abortion “Catholic” who has been denied communion or stricken from church membership rolls, name her/him. I’d be glad to hear of it.
As for little know-nothings like myself wandering in and taking communion, perhaps your parish is better run. Here in San Francisco anyone wanders in and does as they like. I have observed that in every RC church I visited, and I visited many when I first became a Christian.
This criticism is meant in a constructive way, as my answer to the question posed: Why do so fewer Catholics adhere to the moral tenets of their church as opposed to conservative Protestants?
I hope you don’t count me among those hoping for such a collapse. I don’t. Papering over certain things doesn’t lead to strength, though. It makes any church that does so a party to that particular sin, imho.
I can hear it now...ND is a tradition..handed down from such and such century...blah blah blah. Yep, I know all about it.
My grandparents, great grandparents and so on and so forth all the way back to Holy Island in Ireland could give you the answer to that one.
You really have no real say. My grandparents were faithful Catholics until the day they died and they never had a say in anything that happened in their own church.
All we ever got from the Pope for centuries of devotion was a signed picture acknowledgement for a fiftieth wedding anniversary like he was some far away untouchable celebrity like Elvis.
Yep...I know.
Wrong. Drunkeness is a mortal sin.
In the Catholic church, only heinious type sins are condemnable and require forgiveness
Wrong.
It’s not uncommon for a Catholic to g for a full year without confession and repentance...
"It's not uncommon" ... it's also "not uncommon" to find a Catholic catechism or spiritual director encouraging an extensive examination of conscience every night.
Many protestants confess their sins, big or small, daily, or hourly...
And many Protestants think their sins don't matter because they're guaranteed to go to heaven no matter what.
So why are persons who sleep around, do drugs, have abortions, etc., still considered "Catholics," despite the fact that their faith is only a husk of a real Catholic faith?
Because it's polemically convenient for Protestants to do so?
Because the Catholic church keeps her doors open to them and invites them back? (Shame on us for being eager to go after the lost sheep.)
Absolutely, categorically untrue. All the Protestants I know try as hard as they can to stay away from any sin that would be an abomination to the Lord that they love. I have met no one...period, that thinks or acts like you describe.
Next propaganda myth...
Participating in the sin of abortion results in automatic excommunication.
Frances Kissling, who runs "Catholics [sic] for a Free Choice [sic]," ran a chain of abortion clinics and has thereby been excommunicated countless times.
Incidentally, her organization is basically an office with a fax machine and an expense account paid for by the Ford Foundation, the Packard Foundation (of Hewlett-Packard), and similar organizations. The organization exists to defame and oppose the Catholic Church, in order to further Kissling's program of killing innocent kids. A more accurate name for it would be "A Few Anti-Catholics for a Deadly Choice".
Actually, like all other commie operations run by these leftist, they exists, not to just discredit the Catholic Church or even to continue the sin of abortion, but to completely destroy the Church in it's entirety along with any other faith organization that threatens complete rule by the state.
I said that to make an outrageous accusation so y'all would see just how absurd Iscool's comments sound to Catholic ears. After all, there are certainly as many Protestants like that as there are Catholic priests and bishops who encourage drunkeness and fornication, right, Iscool?
But if you think there's nothing to it, I'll leave you with these words of Martin Luther:
Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness
No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
“Frances Kissling, who runs “Catholics [sic] for a Free Choice [sic],” ran a chain of abortion clinics and has thereby been excommunicated countless times.”
She has been excommunicated in theory, or in practice she is actually refused communion? Cause Pelosi et al get their elements.
From another FR thread today, illustrating my point:
“Ignoring the controversy surrounding Notre Dame’s honoring of pro-abortion Barack Obama as its commencement speaker, Saint Joseph’s University has followed suit. It will grant an honorary degree to broadcast journalist Chris Matthews at the university’s 2009 commencement ceremonies.
Despite Mr. Matthew’s Catholic education, having graduated from the College of the Holy Cross, he is widely regarded as a strong supporter of abortion rights, and was unabashed in his admiration of Mr. Obama’s positions.
Support for abortion is antithetical to the Church’s teachings.
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops opposes the practice of hosting speakers who are outspoken against Catholic doctrine.
“The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles,” said the bishop’s conference in a statement. “They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions.”
Calls to Saint Joseph’s President Fr. Timothy Lannon went unreturned.”
If it’s not going to follow Catholic teachings, it should no longer be called a Catholic college. It seems like the Bishops or those in charge want to keep that Catholic name on there, but don’t want to enforce adherence to Catholic doctrine.
Then it becomes meaningless, and everybody sort of does whatever they want.
In re: gambling, I think people are referring to Bingo nights, which you must admit are well known as part of the Catholic church culture. I’m not taking a stand for or against, I’m just saying, there are permanent Bingo banners up on many Catholic churches in our area.
Are you saying that the Catholics you know aren’t centered and that their faith doesn’t guide or instruct them?
I care what the Pope says since he speaks as Christ would speak. Got a problem with that, too?
So the Bumper Sticker you saw offended you because it said “Pope Benedict XVI says fight for innocent life.” Yeah, I could see how that would be offensive or a concern.
Yeah, your “who cares what the Pope says” says a lot to me. BTW, the Pope was saying what Jesus taught about innocent life. Guess you missed that in the anti Catholic crap you posted.
Don't you see...the propaganda is meant for all of us to stay divided. We have to stop throwing each other to the wolves or the wolves will win and devourer us all.
I am not trying to be divisive. The original post asked, why are Catholics, according to the Gallup poll, so much farther from practicing the moral tenets of their faith than Protestants? And my opinion is, because there is a serious lack of discipline in the Catholic church. That’s all. Some of my favorite people have been (morally practicing) Catholics.
I think the reason the Catholic Church is polling this way is because they have had a major shift from the top in the way they deal with rebuking the sin. The Protestant "top" is too close to home, so the little "cheaters" hide it under a bushel.
The Vatican has been shamed politically from centuries ago for draconian type rebukes and now they dread rebuking at all. The pendulum has swung to far in the other direction.
Funny thing about the Amish. They won’t fight for their country (in this case, the US). I sorta have a problem with that. I respect their beliefs and their lifestyle. But they aren’t willing to fight for it or for the US. I wonder if they’d fight/die for their beliefs if they couldn’t hide behind the U.S.
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