Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54
True enough.
some of the ‘artists’ have long gone.
balderdash.
CALVARY CHAPEL IS TOP FLIGHT ON ALL THOSE BIBLICAL POINTS.
dozens and dozens and dozens of
SCRIPTURES for one.
Yes that may be true about the evidence, but as far as material that the average joe can get a hold of and read that talks about the issue it is like trying to find a needle in a hay stake.
That is pretty much my take.
I was actually led to the Lord through reading one of Hal Lindsey’s books in the early 1980’s. I later caught him in a bold faced lie in another book over an “apparent apparition” in a photograph that was OBVIOUSLY a standard photographic effect.
But my salvation does not depend on Hal...
Let’s go ahead and ping topcat to your comment as well, since I was quoting him.
Did they get over the whole Chuck Smith "Jesus is coming back in 1981" thing?
There is enough information to stimulate good debate.
We’ll know for sure eventually. ;)
You mean the sinful men and women in the Amazon that suppress the truth in unrighteousness...to whom all that can be known of God is plain...who knew Him but did not honor Him nor were thankful? Those for whom there is no excuse? (Rom 1)
I think Scripture is pretty clear exactly what will happen to them.
You said — “I attended the Prophecy Conference with over 4000 people at each service, it was a most blessed event. I did not hear all the speakers, and did not hear anyone predicting the Rapture although I heard about the rapture in scripture.”
That’s wonderful that you were able to attend. Did you get the CDs of the series? I see the speakers were the following —
Paul McGuire – The Coming One World Religion
David Hocking – What’s About to Happen in the Middle East
Jack Hibbs – What Are the Last Days and Why Should You Care?
Ed Hindson – Is the Antichrist Alive Today?
Britt Merrick – Why God Has Given Us Bible Prophecy?
Mark Hitchcock – The Late Great United States
David Reagan – What Happens When You Die?
Bob McEwen – Freedom in Crisis, A World View
Tim LaHaye – Will You Be Left Behind?
Bob McEwen – Finding Hope in the Global Crisis
In terms of anyone predicting the Rapture, I have not heard anyone of these well-known and major prophecy speakers, preachers and teachers ever doing that. I’ve certainly heard of *others* do that, in which they gain a following for a time and get people excited and then they go away. These guys don’t do that.
The reason why is that they understand the “doctrine of imminence”, and you’ll hear them speaking about it. They say that no “signs” will precede the coming of Jesus Christ, in the air, for the church, the Rapture. They say that there are no prophecies to be fulfilled before the Rapture. That’s why they call it a “signless event”. It will be a surprise and people will not be expecting it.
At the same time, we have to realize that Jesus Christ’s “second coming” to set up the Kingdom on earth is not a “signless event”. For one example, we can say that 1,260 days will elapse from the time of the abomination of desolation (the Antichrist in the Temple and stopping the sacrifices) to the coming of Jesus Christ to set up the Kingdom on earth. This is a *definite* time that can be “counted down” to that point of when He returns. All someone has to do, at that point in time, is count the exact days, and when you get to day 1259 — you know that Jesus Christ is coming *tomorrow* — exactly and right on the money.
So, there’s a difference between a “signless event” where no prophecies have to be fulfilled (for the Rapture, hence the “doctrine of imminence”)— and — all the prophecies that have to be fulfilled before Jesus Christ sets up the Kingdom on earth. Those two things are two different events, at two different times.
Now, it has been said that when you see that the “timing” for the “second coming” of Jesus Christ seems to be *coming quickly* (and *that* is not a signless event, as said above) — then — you know that the Rapture is coming *even more quickly*... (which is a signless event).
It’s like saying — “I see Christmas items being put up in the stores — so — Thanksgiving must be *really, really close*...” LOL...
You could say, the same thing — that “I see the signs for the second coming of Christ (to set up His Kingdom) lining up in many different ways, so the Rapture must be really really close!”
AND SO..., *this* is the most that you’ll ever hear from these guys (like the ones you heard at that prophecy conference) — in that they’ll say, “We see the signs of Christ coming to set up His Kingdom and things are lining up dramatically — so — the Rapture must be really really close!” And that’s about it. There is *still* the “doctrine of imminence” that they all adhere to — which is different than the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to set up His Kingdom, here on earth.
It’s the same way with me — when I see the Christmas decorations going into the stores — I do know that Thanksgiving is really really close!” :-)
Excellent Post ST!
I heard David Hocking and Ed Hinson..The other’s could not get into to see... In addition most of the material were selling out like Hotcakes..I bought the Book from Ed Hinson
The Coming of the Antichrist and one on the Rapture of the Church of course..:)
I heard no predictions, just biblical prophecy and being prepared in these perilous times.
You are right the Signs in Matthew are the 2nd Coming..
The Rapture has no signs, just be prepared, because it definetly happens before Jesus comes to rein on earth and we definetly see those signs daily!
In regards to what you said about Ed Hindson — “First let me say Ed did not say he thought Obama was the Antichrist..HOWEVER he said..*Do you see how a total unknown Like Barak Obama really came from no-where, a man that was able to capture the hearts and minds of people not only in the USA but all over the world, he said who could of thought *One Man* could accomplish such adulation in such a short time, just speaking about *Change* he said if Obama could accomplish this, what do you think the Antichrist can do? He also said if anyone currently could identify who the Antichrist is we can be sure, we have been *left Behind*.”
Yes, that’s very true, what Ed Hindson says. This gives an “insight” into the mentality and thinking of the people today — that they accept so readily, someone like Obama — who can have *some* characteristics of the Antichrist and see people react this way. This shows that people *are being prepared* for the coming of the Antichrist.
And this points out something that I’ve always thought. The Bible gives prophecies about what is to happen during these days (that we are in). Many people think that things happen “full blown” literally overnight. But, in reality, it doesn’t happen that way. We always see the precursors and the events “building” over time. It could be developing quickly, to be sure, but they will be building, nonetheless.
For example, Israel will be under great distress during those times (the Tribulation) and it will be persecuted and abandoned by the nations. We do see that the pressure is building on Israel and the nations don’t seem to be inclined to see things from Israel’s perspective of “mere survival” but rather from the perspective of the Islamic terrorists who want to destroy Israel. Then we see Iran stating boldly that they want to see the nation of Israel totally destroyed and wiped out and driven out of the area and have Islam take control over the land of Israel. And repeatedly, Iran keeps *asserting* that they have absolutely no intention of backing off their nuclear technology and how it’s their right to have it and no nation will interfere with them. They also state that Israel and the United States are their enemy and that they both will be destroyed.
This is all stuff that is *building* and is observable, in the meantime — before it gets to the climax of the events (those particular prophetic events. So, the prophetic events are key items and one could say that they are “highlights”. We are not given all the “mechanisms” that lead up to them — but — those mechanisms that lead up to the particular prophetic events *will be in operation* in “realtime” and they will be observed by the people living in those “prophetic days”. So, that’s what we see going on right now. It’s what is called (by many of these prophetic teachers) as “stage setting”. It’s setting the stage before the “next act” occurs. So, the “world’s stage” is being “set” — before the final call for the last act of the Tribulation period.
So, once again, we have particular and “limited” prophetic events that are given to us. They don’t just “happen” without “lead-on events” in real life happening first. So, we can see the “lead-on events” in realtime, which lead up to those “certain prophetic events” given in the Bible. And that’s what we see happening now.
What Ed Hindson is saying about Obama, is not that Obama can be the Antichrist, no..., not at all. What he is saying is that Obama is the “type” or the “lead-on event” that shows the “mentality” and the “thinking” of people of *this particular day* — in how they *can accept* the kind of person like who the Antichrist is — who is coming shortly. The “people” are now being “prepared” for the coming of the Antichrist — and you can actually “see it”...
I figure I’ll try to live my life as a good Christian, and let the end take care of itself.
That’s one theory. Most theologians, past and present, do not happen to agree with that theory.
According to you Jesus Christ is only going to be concerned with his true flock and to hell with the rest.
Not sure where you get that reading of my views.
The Purpose of Jesus Christ removing his church is to give people another chance to be reconciled to GOD,
In case you have not noticed, God doesn’t need to remove one people from the earth to reconcile. He is quite capable of doing both, as is evidenced from the entire NT when Jews and gentiles came together with the salvation of God to form one new man, the Church. In the books of Acts, for example, we find several instances of Him reconciling thousands of Jewish people in a single day. So, your bogus contention does not stand the test of the Bible. That’s one reason why the pop prophecy conferences are so popular with the theologically naïve. Most folks don’t know enough to ask the hard questions. And those that do usually would not be found dead at such a conference.
The theory that God needs to remove the Church so that God can unleash a great holocaust against national Israel is totally unsupported from the Bible.
But I’m sure that is what was being taught at the sessions of this “prophecy conference”. Here we have the so-called friends of Israel getting together to tell one another how they all won’t be around when two-thirds of the “apple of God’s eye” is reduced to ashes.
The good news for Jewish people, as for all people, is that none of this “holocaust is in store for Israel” stuff is true. All sorts of men can come to Christ today and be reconciled to God. They don’t need to be segregated along racial lines. Jews are no more incapable today of being saved than anyone else, since ultimately salvation of the Lord. He chooses who will be raised from the dead spiritually by identification with the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The next event on the eschatological radar is the return of Christ, the general resurrection of all men, followed immediately by the great white throne judgment (aka separation of the sheep and goats).
You were saying — “”However” ... that’s a key word for the Rapture Ready crowd. They are always hedging their bets, insinuating they know more than they really know.”
That’s not what Ed Hindson was indicating. I know from having heard him before, myself. But, also, it was stated in what TaraP said, too. He didn’t “hedge his bets” — but “outright” said that if Obama is the Antichrist and we see him here, then we have been “left behind” (of course, his meaning being — that it’s “not true” and we have not been left behind... LOL...).
Obama was ruled out — and it was not a “hedged bet”.
The one thing that is taught over and over again, by all of these Bible Prophecy teachers is the “doctrine of imminence” in that Jesus Christ will come in the air, for His church (the Rapture) and it will not have any specific prophecies needed to be fulfilled *beforehand* for this to happen. And it will be a “signless event” — in that there are no “signs” which will precede this event that will let people know that it is about to happen. It is said it will be a surprise and no one will be expecting it — hence — one “expects it at any time” (an hour from now, in the next few minutes, tomorrow, next week, next year, in a decade, and so on..., at any time).
These Bible Prophecy teachers don’t say that they know *more* than what the Bible says about it, but they do know that the signs of Jesus Christ’s second coming are building right now. And so, being that this is the case, they also know that the time for the “signless event” to happen (i.e., the Rapture) is even closer than that of the second coming of Jesus Christ to set up the Kingdom on the earth.
And it’s like I’ve said in another post, “When one sees Christmas decorations being put into the stores, then one knows that Thanksgiving is really, really close!”
When one sees the signs of Jesus Christ’s second coming building and things being put into place in the world in which they are lining up for the Kingdom to be established on this earth by Jesus Christ — then one knows that the Rapture is really really close.
But, none of these Bible prophecy teachers ever say when that is going to be, because that goes against the “doctrine of imminence”.
—
Your questions about the title of the talk given by Ed Hindson — “Is the Antichrist Alive Today?” indicate a bit of a misunderstanding of what he was trying to accomplish.
First of all, that’s a question that is popularly raised. So, having it for a title, is certainly what is on the minds of some. Now, as to what his answer is going to be, is quite another matter. The idea that he got across clearly (and I’ve heard him directly myself, too, but not at this conference) — is that the Antichrist will not be seen by those taken up in the Rapture. He and others are very clear about that. It is emphasized repeatedly.
Secondly, it is clear that the “world” will be prepared for the coming of the Antichrist. To prepare the world for the coming of the Antichrist — and have it *not happen* would be a waste. God does allow people to be “prepared” for what He has coming down the pike. What Ed Hindson was clearly saying is not that one would be able to identify the Antichrist by any characteristics that the Bible would give about him (for the purposes of us “hunting him down and finding out who it is) — but rather — he was saying that the “mentality” and the “thinking” that arise in the “world” (i.e., the mass of the people that we see today) — indicates that they will “follow” the “type of person” that the Antichrist is. We don’t “identify him” — but we have “characteristics” of him — that allow us to see that the world is being prepared for the “likes of a type of man” similar to the Antichrist and what he will be. That’s what Ed Hindson is getting across to people.
So, it comes down to Ed Hindson saying, we will not see the Antichrist — but — we can see that the people of today are “being prepared” for the same type and similarities of the kind of man the Antichrist is like (Obama being an “example” of some of those characteristics, but he’s not the Antichrist).
I don't respond to Pixy Stix theologies. Where there is genuine biblical substance, then I take notice. You can’t argue with straw.
Far less than most think. Most of the info is manufactured.
We’ll know for sure eventually. ;)
That’s true about everything. Until that time, my money is riding the theology that has nothing to do with race or nationality.
You said — “I figure I’ll try to live my life as a good Christian, and let the end take care of itself.”
Well, it is stated repeatedly, by Bible Prophecy teachers, that there are good reasons for Bible Prophecy to be taught and understood. For one thing, it is God’s proof to us (when we do see prophecy being fulfilled, as we have in the First coming of Jesus), that this is God’s way of validating His Word. If you don’t know of these things — you’ve lost one “major component” of the validation and proof of God’s word as being the Inerrant and Infallible Word of God in all that it says and teaches on.
Secondly, the another reason for the teaching of Bible Prophecy — is that it gives people *high motivation* for going out to “reach the lost”. Otherwise, if people think that things are just “going to go along like they always have for centuries” — then many will figure they’ve got time to live their lives (albeit as “good Christians” of course) in a normal fashion and there is “plenty of time”
BUT — with Bible Prophecy being taught and with it being *understood* — we see that the *time is very short* and we are not going to be able to live out our lives as “normal” — as has been done for centuries and centuries — but that Christ is *coming in our time*.
THAT — all by itself (that understanding of Bible prophecy) — gives great urgency to reaching all those who don’t know Christ — instead of merely living out “my life as a good Christian, and let the end take care of itself.”
Christians need to “feel ashamed” of simply doing that...
What about the alleged prophecy regarding the restoration of national Israel. All the pop prophecy gurus back in the 70s and 80s where absolutely certain about the very specific sign of the “fig tree” found in the Matthew 24, including the Calvary Chapel patriarchy. That why 1988 became the focus of so many sermons and books. Folke give Edgar Whisenant a hard time for writing “88 Reasons”, but the fact is he was only following down the path started by Chuck Smith and Co. He was not the problem. Hal, and Chuck, and Salem Kirban -- they were the problem.
This entire conference would not have existed except for the fact that there is an entity in the middle east called “Israel” that futurists eye longingly as evidence of Jesus’ return “real soon now”.
Every time a futurist denies signs, and then mentions Israel in the next breathe, it pretty obvious what they really believe.
indicates that they will “follow” the “type of person” that the Antichrist is.
I would bet dollars to donuts that Hinson was not using any biblical model to describe the antichrist. Reason is there is very little in the Bible about the subject, certainly not enough to fill the books and lectures of the futurists. Every one of these folks thinks they know what antichrist will be like, by comparing to this person or that person, but the fact is they are clueless. Their descriptions are more psychological than theological.
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