Mormons frequently refer people investigating their religion to a promise in the Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4:
"And when ye shall receive these things [the Book of Mormon], I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."From DU's page: The formula is simple, Get a Book of Mormon, Get a Bible. Read both, pray about both, ask God to testify of Jesus and ask God to reveal errors for what they are, and truth for what it is and listen for God's response. The response should contain a testimony of Jesus, or it may not be from God."
Got that? A caveat on what the response must be or "it may not be from God".
THAT is to inform those taking the "test" that if you get a response to your prayer that the BOM is from satan, you can't possibly have received the response from God.
Let's look at that claim.
Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device. It promises a particular result if certain terms are met. But the terms reflect on the seeker's integrity as regards both his sincerity and resolve, and on his faith in Christ. To be willing to rely on the promise of this verse as a test for the Book of Mormon's truthfulness one must already have concluded somehow that its instruction is valid and its promise reliable. That is, one must already believe in the "truthfulness" of this verse.
If the verse is true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised is a failure to meet the terms. That is, one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ. If one believes the verse is true then one must obtain the answer promised, or face an embarrassing judgement of one's sincerity, intent, or faith in Christ. he seeker is forced into convincing himself he has had some kind of manifestation from God, just to vindicate his own character. Or worse, he is moved to a frame of mind where he will gladly and indiscriminately embrace any supernatural manifestation as though it were from God.
Plain reason, not to mention all the force of Scripture's revelation of the character of God, testifies that God would not, does not, use such manipulative mind/ego games against the human family to bring them to believe the truth. God does not approve, and truth does not need, such machinations.
Got that? A caveat on what the response must be or "it may not be from God".
Um, I know you were "around" A couple of years ago all the antis were on this kick trying to tell everyone we were receiving an answer from Satan instead of God. (What a specious argument that was in that it had not a shred of support from the Bible.)
Thus I pointed out that:
First John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
First John 4:1-3 precludes that as an answer to my testimony, since my testimony, from God, of the Book of Mormon contained a testimony of Jesus Christ, it had to be from God. Anyone who wants the "Straight poop" on what's actually on my page,
Here is a link to the section greyfoxx39 is talking about.
THAT is to inform those taking the "test" that if you get a response to your prayer that the BOM is from satan, you can't possibly have received the response from God.
Again with the mind reading? How can you tell people (legitimately) what I mean by something? I mean what I say, if people don't understand, they should come to me not you. However, since you think that is fair, I would suggest that everyone who has a question about anything you say should come to me for clarification, are you good with that greyfoxx39?
I thought not.
Then you link people to an anti site (can't you people come up with your own arguments? LOL!)
Now, I'll examine your claims...
Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device.
Yeah, my daughter went through a phase where she thought I was being manipulative when I told her I loved her... Some people (usually those trying to manipulate others) see manipulation everywhere.
It promises a particular result if certain terms are met.
That is called a contract in today's terms, can a contract be manipulative, yes, but it does not have to be manipulative, so this does not prove your point.
But the terms reflect on the seeker's integrity as regards both his sincerity and resolve, and on his faith in Christ.
Which are both valid points, lets address them both:
Must God answer an insincere prayer?
The Bible has many Scriptures about men praying with insincerity, here is
one of my favorites 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing far off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
so not all prayers are equal, sincerity is important.
Is God required to answer a prayer from someone who is sincere one moment and not the next (fickle)?
Again, nothing in the Scriptures says a fickle man will recieve an answer to his prayer:
James 1: 5-7 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Let me emphasize this: Let not that man think he shall receive anything from the lord..
The Bible does not lead me to believe fickle men, men who are not steadfast in their belief will receive anything from the Lord. Many posters here will already have quotes coming to their mind.
To be willing to rely on the promise of this verse as a test for the Book of Mormon's truthfulness one must already have concluded somehow that its instruction is valid and its promise reliable.
OK, let's examine the Bible, does it have anything in it that give a similar promise? Why yes, my page that you quote from talks about
First John 4:1-3, not
Moroni 10: 4... This is a
Straw man argument (since I don't quote
Moroni 10: 4 on
my page.)
Now, let's talk about the logic involved, if I sign a contract with Greyfoxx39 and say you give me $10,000 and I will give you this bridge (just so greyfoxx39 will like this analogy). I can point out to you that you can verify the deed with both a title company, and the state. so, you decide to "do the deal", you get the deed and everything checks out with the state and the title is clean, did you not legitimately buy a bridge from me? I used selling a bridge which is a stereotypically shady deal, lots of jokes are made about selling bridges, but bridges are sometimes legitimately bought and sold. The key is to do your research and make sure the title is valid.
So, contracts are a "valid" form and the Bible contains many of them. Offering testimony from the Holy Spirit is valid if it can be verified that it is the Holy spirit that testified, the Bible in
First John 4:1-3 takes care of that, so it's valid too.
Let's see what else is in here...
That is, one must already believe in the "truthfulness" of this verse.
LOL! All you have to do is know and believe the Bible. As a matter of fact, the
Book of Mormon is subtitled "ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST" Which means it is intended for those who already have the Bible (the first testament), thus
First John 4:1-3 applies and once the book of Mormon is validated by
First John 4:1-3, the Book of Mormon as a second testament can make parts of the Bible which are not clear, clear because that's one of it's purposes.
If the verse is true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised is a failure to meet the terms.
Actually, there are many possible reasons for not receiving an "immediate" answer, God does things in his time and to his purposes, not ours. God sometimes wants "more" from us, I have several friends who were told they would never have kids, then after they adopted a child, boom they're pregnant! I think God just wanted them to show their commitment to having kids. (Hey it's an opinion and everybody gets one!)
That is, one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ.
That is entirely possible, you see, I knew a fundamentalist Christian (he would have been condemning you guys too BTW) who told me that he read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it once just so he could say he'd proven it wrong. What a waste of time.
If one believes the verse is true then one must obtain the answer promised, or face an embarrassing judgement of one's sincerity, intent, or faith in Christ.
Or if one sincerely prays and does not get an answer, over time say a year or two, then one could conclude that God is not going to answer you, and the Book of Mormon is false. To my knowledge that has never happened and I've been doing this for a while. In my experience, if an Anti Mormon tells you he has received a testimony the book of Mormon is wrong and you start to get "the details" you catch them lying about something (like even reading the book...). There are also people who used to be members who have testified of the Book of Mormon, and Joseph smith who now testify against him, They are suspect, because they are perjurers before God, either then, or now.
Go with God, he always tells the truth, once you ask him, what anyone tells you won't matter.
Anyone out there who has read the Book of Mormon every day for a year, been praying about it for a year, and has not had an answer, FM me, I'd like to talk to you and find out why.
I have talked to many anti's who started to read it.. or read it to "prove it false" we all know what's wrong with that from the quotes in the Bible.
the seeker is forced into convincing himself he has had some kind of manifestation from God, just to vindicate his own character.
Really, does that hold true for people who read
First John 4:1-3 and pray about the Bible and don't get an answer?
Now you might say that never happens... kind of like I said I hadn't seen that, but the logic is the same. That is the problem with many of the objections antis to any religion bring up, they forget to check and see if their logical assault invalidates their own religion as well. (oops)
Or worse, he is moved to a frame of mind where he will gladly and indiscriminately embrace any supernatural manifestation as though it were from God.
Nowhere does the Book of Mormon, or the Bible promote the acceptance of indiscriminate supernatural manifestations. Any allusions to that are strictly a construct of your own mind.
Plain reason, not to mention all the force of Scripture's revelation of the character of God, testifies that God would not, does not, use such manipulative mind/ego games against the human family to bring them to believe the truth.
Wow, what a
Complex question you pose to reach a conclusion that is not supported by your logic.
Plain reason, huh.
Scripture reveals God's character, I'll agree with that, but how do we know it's God's character that the Bible is revealing? By the Spirit. How do we invite the Spirit to testify of that to you? Through prayer. This sounds familiar, doesn't it, kind of like
First John 4:1-3 sounds a lot like
Moroni 10: 4, huh?
The invalidating logic you would apply to the Book of Mormon would invalidate the bible as well.
Try this scripture from the Book of Mormon
Second Nephi 32:8 8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
God does not approve, and truth does not need, such machinations.
God does approve, it says so in the Bible, truth does not need but we men do need God's revelation to know the truth. What we need is revelation from God to know his truth.
Are you using a "canned argument", or did you actually come up with this from my page, because I quote the Bible...
Also from My page:
The Bible teaches man to Pray, the Book of Mormon teaches men to pray, anyone who teaches something else is not of God.
Friends, brethren, beware of those who teach that God will not answer a sincere prayer from the heart. Seek God. Seek to do good continually, Do good to those who persecute you and despitefully use you. In the end you will in no wise lose your reward for seeking to follow the scriptures.
Amen.
Since you are not actually addressing the claims and arguments on my page, I consider your post to be building a
Straw man, with the additional attempt to burn it before it can be examined.
I testify to you all that I have received a testimony from God that included a testimony of Jesus Christ that the Book of Mormon is his word. I testify to you the Jesus is the Christ that he suffered and died for my sins, was resurrected on the third day and has ascended to heaven with his resurrected body, and that he will return in like manner to which he left. This I testify, so help me God.
God bless you all.