If there was a civilization that numbered in the millions upon millions from sea to sea that originated from the environs of Israel, then we would have undeniable evidence of it by now.The Mormon rebuttal to our "Position" as stated by someone who is not a Mormon, and has not even read the book he is critiquing:
We do not have undeniable evidence of an advanced Hebrew society in the Americas Therefore, these peoples did not / do not exist.
The Book of Mormon is not specific as to the size of land, it does mention bodies of water, but does not specify "sea to sea", nor does the Book of Mormon say Millions.GZ: Is that simple enough for you DU?
The Book of Mormon says that at the time of Jesus Christs death, the earth in the Americas went through major earthquakes and civilization was essentially destroyed.
Civilization never recovered, From the artifacts that have been found this matches with the Geological and Archeological history of the Americas.
DNA geological studies require three thingsA note to me, the Mulekites actually married in to the Nephites, but since the two intermingle at the time of Christ it's a moot point, but fix your page DU...Most genetic researches concerning the Book of Mormon assume the Book of Mormon says the ancestors of the American Indians meet these criteria, lets actually examine what the Book of Mormon says instead of "assuming".
- A Pure genetic sample starting from a common ancestor group.
- A genetically conservative group when living apart.
- A genetically conservative group also from the same ancestor group for comparison.
Supposition # 1, A Pure genetic sample starting from a common ancestor group:Supposition #2 A genetically conservative group When living apart:
- Lehi is a descendant of Joseph (Lets ignore to the end the fact that Joseph and Judah were brothers who's mothers while sisters may well have been from different wives (polygamy in the Bible being so common as to be unremarkable and the desire to have the first born married "first" would only matter for inheritance if the daughters were from different mothers)
- Zoram a slave of indeterminate genetic ancestry joined the group as it fled Jerusalem.
- Ishmael, joins the party by invitation, and we are not told his lineage (probably Jewish, but we can't be sure).
- Zoram and Ishmael's genetic code will be passed on as they now have wives and are procreating.
Supposition #3 A genetically conservative group also from the same ancestor group for comparison:
- And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla
- Mulekites who came over to the Americas separately married in with the Lamanites
- There were Descendants of Ishmael
- Mormon makes a point of saying he is "a pure descendant of Lehi" as if this was a rare thing.
So, out of three things that are needed to get a match we have one. What should we find when doing this comparison?
- The Jews are a well known genetically conservative group.
- Central Siberia being remote is somewhat genetically conservative, but not as genetically conservative as Jewish DNA.
- Asia is also more genetically conservative, but again not as conservative as Jewish DNA.
We should get different answers with differing samples, and Gee, that's what we get.
Your arguments would not be persuasive to these people at the National Geographic Society nor the many, many scientists pursuing these studies.
And mean nothing! Let's give an example:
As I said in a previous post, your understanding of the types and variety of dna related research makes your example incredibly obtuse as each blood cell carries individual dna and mixing blood from different people is not what is occurring in these studies. Simple enough that I get it, but your example indicates you don’t.
All these studies assume a pure genetic sample to start with so their results are bogus, based on a faulty assumption which anyone who has actually read the Book of Mormon would never make on accident.
Once again, the Lemba tribe has proven your statement wrong. They worked with the samples they had and followed the genetics to Israel. Similar group of people separated by the same length of time in conditions where there was more genetic mixing than indicated in the bom.
There is lots of Jewish DNA in Europe. So once researchers have thrown out the very alleles they are looking for, they can't find them
Another flawed strawman DUh. You are assuming the science is so flawed that they cannot identify these? You need to get past the whole groups DU and realize technology and science is at a point where they have accurately categorized halogroup subtypes and sub sub types.
I was not aware I was Quoting... By definition, DNA studies can only be based on what markers are found. Saying not found is just the flip side of found. As for not supporting the BOM, the BOM is clear (if you actually read it) that while the American Indians are descendants of Joseph, the majority of their DNA could come from "elsewhere". Mormon makes a point of saying he is "a pure descendant of Lehi.
Laman was the son of Lehi, the others that came later all came from the environs around Israel, therefore they would carry the same distinctive genes that would identify them from the region. Genetic mapping doesn’t trace individuals as you assume, but people groups from the same region
if Jeff Lindsay makes a good argument, you should (likewise) listen. He makes a good point and sources it.
Apparently you cannot follow the sources of info that Lindsey cited that I followed up on to see if what he was claiming in his argument had basis to be correct. Fact was he was picking selective citations that were generic enough to obfuscate the issue rather than head on.
Actually, Science like you promote would still have us sailing close to the beach so we don't fall off the edge of the earth.
My science has evidence from multiple disciplines showing the earth is round. Mormon science says the earth is flat and with enough time evidence will appear to prove them correct.
GZ: Real science takes the data, evaluates it and develops a conceptual model with which to test the data and compare other data to.
Um, that includes actually reading the book you are claiming to destroy by it's own tenets, did you? (Um... Nnnno)
Mind reading again, I’ve read the book in all its glorious boredom, repetition and ridiculousness. The bom model for new world settlement is not supported by the observations and data from multiple scientific disciplines.
You obviously are as "in the dark" about how Mormons do things as you are on the scientific process of DNA studies. God knows where exactly everything took place, if he wanted us to know, we'd know. Apparently he does not think it's important for our salvation.
Oh it is important to your salvation. . . . what is that funny little book you always want me to read and pray about. . . . . it is the entry level drug for mormonism. If false, then you’ve been following a false prophet (I know you are anyway from other sources besides bom DNA).
Um, why exactly would anyone care if not for the Book of Mormon? Keith Crandall et al can publish all they want and your side will dismiss them faster than Satan condemns righteousness. Why would anyone who didn't have to step into the cesspool anti Mormons always seem to make of discussions that could support Mormons.
So Asian migrationists are now the new anti-mormons LOL. He would have to defend his scientific reasoning with peers in the open world. If he is the sharp noodle you say he is, his paper should revolutionize the DNA studies of the world. His peers would judge the data and interpretation on the scientific merits. Crandall is smart enough to realize that his mormon testimony is in adequate to meet the task of making up for the loss of scientific merit in such a work.
and you know that how? (you don't) you want it to be so. The Book of Mormon (which you have not read) is clear about our lack of knowledge of the history the many of the people the Nephites met in the Americas.
2 Nephi 1:8 strongly indicates the lands were empty. The bom makes no mention of any of the pre-colombian tribes that were present in the region – especially those that dominated central America (just for you limited geography fans). These pre-Colombian peoples were present in the millions and already had a developed culture, as well as being quite war like. Mormon history just ran aground on the reality of pre-colombian America.
Is that what it means? Laman, Nephi's brother is also a descendent of Lehi, so being a "Pure descendant" of Lamanites would also make you a descendant of Lehi (Laman and Nephi's father). Then again if you actually read the book you might just know what you are talking about instead of making embarrassing statements like that.
The Lamanites were originally Nephites who broke off early and began their own race. As such, they too were descendents of Lehi, just like Ishmael’s descendents were also descendents of Abraham. Do you want to make more embarrassing statements DU? Use bright colors when you do.
Right there, is the flaw, the Book of Mormon does not say they are the only ones there, and it explicitly talks about meeting other people in the Americas. It really helps to have read the book, you know? Now back to your illogical slander:
How do you slander a piece of fiction? Nephi indicates the lands were not occupied. The Mulekites arrived from the area of Israel. Jarodites arrived much sooner, but true to form, began fighting each other and killed each other off. Nothing even remotely resembling the cultures of pre-colombian America. So now you stopped reading the Book of Mormon because of a Scientific evidence? My mistake, I thought you had "Bad" feelings and decided God didn't want to you to read it after calling a friend. Where on earth did I get that Idea...
God is not limited to heart burn when revealing His truth.
The Mormon rebuttal to our "Position" as stated by someone who is not a Mormon, and has not even read the book he is critiquing:
Deliberate misrepresentation, but par for your course.
The Book of Mormon is not specific as to the size of land, it does mention bodies of water, but does not specify "sea to sea", nor does the Book of Mormon say Millions.
: Terms such as "multitude," "numerous," "exceedingly great," "innumerable," and "as the sands of the sea" are present in abundance in the bom. 300,000 Lamanites were involved in just one battle IIRC. You would need a population base in the millions to support an army of that size. Alma 2:17-19 reports a total of 19,094 fatalities. On the basis of these figures John Sorenson, estimated the total Nephite-Lamanite population to be over 600,000 at that time (about 200,000 Nephites-Amlicites and over 400,000 Lamanites). Helman 3:8 covers the quote about the seas quite nicely, covering the face of the whole earth.
The Book of Mormon says that at the time of Jesus Christs death, the earth in the Americas went through major earthquakes and civilization was essentially destroyed. Civilization never recovered, From the artifacts that have been found this matches with the Geological and Archeological history of the Americas.
Well, you tweaked my interest, please document these earthquakes that destroyed entire civilizations in the Americas, as this geological history should be most enlightening.
DNA geological studies require three things
As I said earlier, you ought to pass that info to the Nat’l Geo group doing some of the studies LOL
AFA your strawman supposition string goes Lehi, Nephi, Muelkites, Ishmael and Zoram were all from the immediate region around Israel – as such they would carry the semitic genetic marker DNA. The fact that Siberian / Asiatic DNA markers are the primary ones discovered in native populations are present even before bom times (yes, that’s right, in mummies dated well before 600 BC). You sequence falls apart when it hits science (see Nat’l Geo link earlier)
Speaking of Selective memory, did you forget that Keith Crandall is one of the Leading Scientists in the team that proved the link for the Lemba tribe? (that was why he was asked to review Simon Southerton's work...) You can't even discuss a precedent without quoting Keith Crandall's work, how can you then say he's wrong on this? I suppose he's a "fallen Scientist" now that he joined the Church... LOL!
Too bad he couldn’t properly apply what he learned to the Lamanites.